Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
trancejeremy
Adventurer
I think the key difference is that 4e was very well designed, it just was different than what people (including me) apparently wanted.
hawkeyefan
Legend
I’m no business expert, so I certainly could be wrong, but it seems to me that the need for a new edition is tied to their model. They sell lots of books. And many are full of crunch. The constant flow of rules and options has simply made the volume of material for first edition overwhelming.
So they need to start from scratch. They’ve tweaked some things and attempted to address some concerns with first edition. So it’ll hopefully appeal to their existing base (although there seems to be a potential split there) while also being simple enough to appeal to new players. From the bit that I’ve seen, it’s still much more crunchy than D&D 5E, so I guess they’re hoping to appeal to folks who want a bit more rules and options.
I don’t expect their model to significantly change, though....so I expect the parade of splatbooks to simply begin anew. And although I don’t think it’s for me, I hope the game finds an audience and thrives. More games being available is good for the hobby overall, I think.
So they need to start from scratch. They’ve tweaked some things and attempted to address some concerns with first edition. So it’ll hopefully appeal to their existing base (although there seems to be a potential split there) while also being simple enough to appeal to new players. From the bit that I’ve seen, it’s still much more crunchy than D&D 5E, so I guess they’re hoping to appeal to folks who want a bit more rules and options.
I don’t expect their model to significantly change, though....so I expect the parade of splatbooks to simply begin anew. And although I don’t think it’s for me, I hope the game finds an audience and thrives. More games being available is good for the hobby overall, I think.
4e provided a core departure from the traditional D&D experience. While a player may have enjoyed 4e (which I do), most cannot deny that it was an outlier, a departure from everything that came before (and after). Pathfinder 2e seems to be less extreme of a transition from 1e (based on playing several games at cons and running a portion of the playtest).
I think Paizo may find a problem that Pathfinder's core fanbase likely contains a number of players who were so devoted to 3.5 D&D that they refused to go along with 4e (and now won't go on to 5e). [This is the majority of the local Pathfinder players I personally know, YMMV.] I would be surprised if these players go along with the conversion to PF2. So I expect we'll see Paizo will be cannibalizing a sizable chunk of their own market.
I think Paizo may find a problem that Pathfinder's core fanbase likely contains a number of players who were so devoted to 3.5 D&D that they refused to go along with 4e (and now won't go on to 5e). [This is the majority of the local Pathfinder players I personally know, YMMV.] I would be surprised if these players go along with the conversion to PF2. So I expect we'll see Paizo will be cannibalizing a sizable chunk of their own market.
aramis erak
Legend
most of that crowd that I've met departed PF already due to increasing crunch-creep.
I don't think that they are the majority of current PF players.
CapnZapp
Legend
I believe they should have went for an Advanced 5th Edition for their game.
That is, a game that uses 5E's advances in fixing d20 as a base, then opening up a select number of subsystems to add crunch.
Not literally using 5E, of course, but similar enough to entice the huge market of 5E gamers looking for a bit deeper mechanics.
The biggest risk of the actual PF2 is if comes across as a new d20 game: wild imbalances, ultra-heavy DM workload, Christmas trees all around. From what I've seen, I'm not even sure Paizo realize how great 5E is, even as the crunch-constrained game it is.
Aldarc
Legend
Then most people would just keep playing 5e. Why play the same game with a bit more crunch?
I don't think that you have demonstrated in past conversations on this subject matter that you have seen much. And I think that Paizo has a far greater grasp on the state of the TTRPG market than you do.
Celebrim
Legend
Pathfinder 1 had a very aggressive publishing schedule. They put a ton of products out for it in a relatively short amount of time.
I think the problem they have is they've saturated the Pathfinder 1 system. There isn't a ton of obvious things to do. So I don't think they're in so much of an evolve or die situation as needing to reboot.
Hussar
Legend
Let's be fair here. They've released, what, about a dozen books per year (or more) for the past 10 years. That's a frigging mountain of material. It's not unreasonable to want to update the system after that long, and that many hours of refinement.
It's doubtful they'll go full on change. But, they do need to stanch the bleed of losing players to simply aging out. People move on from hobbies. It's only weird assed people like us that stay with a hobby for decades and never move on.
And every game has the same issue - how to make sure that the number of new players is equal to the number of players leaving the hobby.
Imagine trying to get into Pathfinder in 2019. Where would you even start?
I hope they do pull this off. Having a stronger competition for 5e only means that both games get better.
It's doubtful they'll go full on change. But, they do need to stanch the bleed of losing players to simply aging out. People move on from hobbies. It's only weird assed people like us that stay with a hobby for decades and never move on.
And every game has the same issue - how to make sure that the number of new players is equal to the number of players leaving the hobby.Imagine trying to get into Pathfinder in 2019. Where would you even start?
I hope they do pull this off. Having a stronger competition for 5e only means that both games get better.
LordEntrails
Hero
So something like; "We've created products for all the good ideas we have, so we are going to change the rules just enough that we can re-use all out ideas and just convert them to the new rules."
Yea, that will go over well.
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