D&D General What is the Ranger to you?

Gladius Legis · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
I didnt ignore them mate. I called you out on your own dishonesty for handwaving abilities at mid to high level away, while sneaking a few of them in yourself to prove a point.

The difference is your weak build doesn't even come online until 15th level, and you expressedly cited a 15th-level build to try to prove your point. I listed spells starting at 1st level through 5th level to answer your claim spellcasting was weak. Big difference. I dare you to spin it anyway else.

But mechanically it's still a great ability. Your turn ends. A monsters turn begins; he attacks you, his turn ends, and then you move away half your move before anyone else can act (Presuming the classic Wood Elf, Mobile, bonus speed from Scout and Longstrider route), that's 20-30' of movement with no AoO's.

And Uncanny Dodge is still usually better, and you usually get the same end result as Skirmisher using Cunning Action: Disengage. My point stands.

That's as much a problem with your comprehension of what I wrote as it was with my writing.

Nope.

I was refering to an alternate to the 11 levels of Scout and 4 levels of Fighter on top of 5 levels of Ranger (the post was about levels to take after Ranger 5). Substituting the 15 levels of Fighter and Rogue with 3 levels of Scout, 3 of Fighter, and 9 of Druid (if you care about spellcasting).

On top of Ranger was inferred. Now I've expressly clarified it for you.

Well, it wasn't clear before.

That said, your build is still bad, and your point of argument is even worse that you had to refer to a Lv. 20 build to make it.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
The difference is your weak build doesn't even come online until 15th level, and you expressedly cited a 15th-level build to try to prove your point.

Dude, I've told you three times now.

The 'Weak Build' is I presented is (take your choice) at 15th level:

1) Ranger 5, Battlemaster Fighter 3, Scout Ranger 7 (the remaining levels in Scout)
2) Ranger 5, Scout 3, BM 3, Druid 4 (the remaining levels in Druid)

Each class is better at Rangering than the Ranger.

And Uncanny Dodge is still usually better, and you usually get the same end result as Skirmisher using Cunning Action: Disengage. My point stands.

You cant Cunning action [disengage] unless it's your turn an it uses your bonus action. Skirmish uses your reaction.

Scenario: 6 Mooks and 1 Boss, 30' away. You lose initiative. Mook 1 moves up to you and attacks; his turn then ends.

You now shrug, and use your reaction to move away 20-30'. Now the other mooks (and the boss) cant attack you this round. They can Dash to you (wasting their actions) or use (usually subpar ranged attacks, if any) and that's it.

On your turn (presuming they dash) you [bonus action] disengage, move 40-60' and shoot stuff.

It's even better when you have a Meatshield nearby. When you move using Skirmish, you dont provoke opportunity attacks from anyone (letting you escape being surrounded) and the Fighter meatshield can lock the monsters down via AoO from following you up (presuming you havent been able to move far enough to totally get away from them with your reaction).

One big hit from a solo monster, and you're better off using uncanny dodge. In most other situations (multiple monsters, or you're swarmed, or you're caught in melee near the edge of the battle, where you tend to live as an archer) you're better off Skirmishing away.

Gladius Legis · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Dude, I've told you three times now.

The 'Weak Build' is I presented is (take your choice) at 15th level:

1) Ranger 5, Battlemaster Fighter 3, Scout Ranger 7 (the remaining levels in Scout)
2) Ranger 5, Scout 3, BM 3, Druid 4 (the remaining levels in Druid)

Each class is better at Rangering than the Ranger.

Build 1: More or less a wash vs. straight Ranger at Lv. 9, when you're probably on one of the last legs of your campaign. Action Surge and Superiority Dice vs. 2 casts of Conjure Animals and also more 2nd-level spell slots.

You're also one feat/ASI down from a straight Ranger.

You don't get Cunning Action until Lv. 10 and your Scout archetype (such as that is with 3 levels) until Lv. 11. Your campaign is probably about to wrap up by then. Meanwhile the straight Ranger 11 has either Multiattack, Stalker's Flurry or Distant Strike, all of them nice boosts to offense. Oh, and one more casting of Conjure Animals for lovely damage and battlefield presence.

Build 2: Ranger 9 is a feat ahead and has Conjure Animals. Ranger 11 has the subclass offense boost vs. Action Surge ... with 2 attacks per round call it a draw. And with the 4 Druid levels you're still stuck at 2nd-level spells at Lv. 15, while the straight Ranger is playing with 4th-level spells and nice things like Guardian of Nature for all the advantage on attacks that he wants. The multiclass build gets to finally play with Conjure Animals at Lv. 16, when the Ranger has been enjoying that spell for the last 7 levels.

I'm really not seeing how either of your builds are any better at "Rangering" than the Ranger. And those builds are certainly taking far too long to mature into anything worthwhile.

BookBarbarian · Jul 12, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I’d also accept making the Beast a spell creature like Find Steed, but a lot of people insist that it can’t be a magical creature.

The Artificer's Iron Defender makes a pretty sturdy Beast companion. Just lose the artificial nature and I'd take it for a Beastmaster Ranger. The Homunculus is pretty neat too.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
I'm really not seeing how either of your builds are any better at "Rangering" than the Ranger. And those builds are certainly taking far too long to mature into anything worthwhile.

What do you mean they take too long to mature?

From levels 1-5 they're identical to a single classed ranger! It's only after 5th level that you take levels in other classes because Ranger 6-20 sucks.

Ranger 6-20 is full of sub-par class features (such as covering itself in mud at 10th level, a woeful capstone, getting better at stuff you never do in most campaigns with favored enemy and terrain feature improvements, getting a gimped version of a feature your Rogue has had since 2nd level... at 14th level and so forth).

I guess it's a half caster, but it's list is sub-par compared to Paladin (the other half caster), it's locked into a small selection of spells known (unlike the Paladin who can mix and match and has twice as many spells known, if not more), cant change those spells other than by advancing a level (one spell at a time), and the list is worse than the Paladins.

Look at your average Hunter Ranger vs a Vengeance Paladin at say... 6th level.

Ranger knows 4 spells (one of which is certain to be Hunters Mark, another Longstrider, a third Pass without Trace and the 4th probably Healing spirit or Cure Wounds or Goodberry, or Absorb elements if healing isnt that important).

The Paladin (Presuming a Charisma of 16 which he should have at this level) has Bane, Hold Person, Hunters Mark, Misty step... (a better list already) and 6 more prepared like Cure wounds, Bless, a few Smite spells, and Find Steed (Find Steed only needs to be cast once and bam Presto that things hanging around now as well, and at 6th level it's probably better than a Beastmaster Companions animal companion!).

If our Paladin is unhappy with his 10 spells known, he can swap 6 out every morning.

He winds up with 25 spells known (prepared) including scry, banishment, hold monster, dimension door, dispel magic, bless, misty step, Haste, Find greater steed, Raise dead etc. He doesnt like them, he can swap most out in the morning.

The Ranger winds up with 11 spells known, and is stuck with from an inferior list.

About the only list that's worse than the Rangers, is probably the EK and the AT, and they only get 2 schools to play with each, and are 1/3 casters (and even then it's still close!)

Gladius Legis · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
What do you mean they take too long to mature?

From levels 1-5 they're identical to a single classed ranger! It's only after 5th level that you take levels in other classes because Ranger 6-20 sucks.

Ranger 6-20 is full of sub-par class features (such as covering itself in mud at 10th level, a woeful capstone, getting better at stuff you never do in most campaigns with favored enemy and terrain feature improvements, getting a gimped version of a feature your Rogue has had since 2nd level... at 14th level and so forth).

I guess it's a half caster, but it's list is sub-par compared to Paladin (the other half caster), it's locked into a small selection of spells known (unlike the Paladin who can mix and match and has twice as many spells known, if not more), cant change those spells other than by advancing a level (one spell at a time), and the list is worse than the Paladins.

Look at your average Hunter Ranger vs a Vengeance Paladin at say... 6th level.

Ranger knows 4 spells (one of which is certain to be Hunters Mark, another Longstrider, a third Pass without Trace and the 4th probably Healing spirit or Cure Wounds or Goodberry, or Absorb elements if healing isnt that important).

The Paladin (Presuming a Charisma of 16 which he should have at this level) has Bane, Hold Person, Hunters Mark, Misty step... (a better list already) and 6 more prepared like Cure wounds, Bless, a few Smite spells, and Find Steed (Find Steed only needs to be cast once and bam Presto that things hanging around now as well, and at 6th level it's probably better than a Beastmaster Companions animal companion!).

If our Paladin is unhappy with his 10 spells known, he can swap 6 out every morning.

He winds up with 25 spells known (prepared) including scry, banishment, hold monster, dimension door, dispel magic, bless, misty step, Haste, Find greater steed, Raise dead etc. He doesnt like them, he can swap most out in the morning.

The Ranger winds up with 11 spells known, and is stuck with from an inferior list.

About the only list that's worse than the Rangers, is probably the EK and the AT, and they only get 2 schools to play with each, and are 1/3 casters (and even then it's still close!)

Umm, so you're trying to defend your multiclass builds by ... comparing the Ranger to the Paladin?

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .... k

Xeviat · Jul 12, 2019

This was supposed to be a thread on what the ranger is or should be, not a mechanical analysis.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I’d also accept making the Beast a spell creature like Find Steed, but a lot of people insist that it can’t be a magical creature.

Pretty sure rangers get a spell that lets them befriend an animal. Lasts 24 hours.

Requires DM permission and Handle Animal skill but you can probably achieve more with that spell than you can with the entire Beastmaster archetype.

If you're a Paladin, just cast Find Steed and then Find Greater steed. Summon whatever animal you want. You dont have to ride the thing, and it doesnt even have to be ride-able!

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
Umm, so you're trying to defend your multiclass builds by ... comparing the Ranger to the Paladin?

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .... k

Dude, the whole point of the exercise is to show that Rangers suck mechanically after 5th level. In order to do that it's pretty important to compare them (mechanically) to other classes and 'builds'.

You can build a more 'rangery' ranger (i.e. better than the Ranger at sneaking around, doing nature and surival and scouting stuff, mobile fighting and damage) by leaving Ranger and taking levels in Scout Rogue (which I am all but persuaded of the Devs thew in to mainly give Rangers a stealth buff) and Fighter.

By 5th level, youve gotten everything useful out of Ranger you're going to get, and you're better off leaving.

Heck; even taking 10 levels of Lore Bard after 5 levels of Ranger makes you a better Ranger - you get expertise AND plenty of extra skills, can fluff cutting words as you using your Favored enemy knowledge of the enemies against them, and gain access to the best ranger spells early thanks to Magical secrets, and your spell-casting drastically improves (as do your skills).

You literally lose a handful of OK to meh abilities from Ranger in exchange for some vastly superior ones!

Seriously; 10 levels of ANY class is better on a Ranger 5 than taking Ranger 6-15, and if your campaign stretches to 20th, taking 15 levels of any other class other than Ranger is better after 5th.

That's a sad indictment on the Ranger class as a class.

Look at the Xanathars Ranger archetypes (and the Scout). They all are amazing (Monster Hunter and Gloomstaker are up there with Hexblade as 'wowowowo'), and the Scout is built to plug into the Ranger as a backdoor fix also. The few spells for Rangers in the book are great also (Steel Wind strike, Absorb elements, that force of nature one etc)

The Devs are onto the issue, and are trying to fix it by bolting on powerful archetypes, spells and stealth fixes to the Ranger as the game goes on.

It's still not enough to make me want to take more than 5 levels in the class though.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 12, 2019

Xeviat said:
This was supposed to be a thread on what the ranger is or should be, not a mechanical analysis.

yeah I can’t imagine a more painfully boring and pointless outcome for a thread than pages on end of mechanical analysis in a thread about concepts and identity.

BookBarbarian said:
The Artificer's Iron Defender makes a pretty sturdy Beast companion. Just lose the artificial nature and I'd take it for a Beastmaster Ranger. The Homunculus is pretty neat too.

That would work too.

Flamestrike said:
Pretty sure rangers get a spell that lets them befriend an animal. Lasts 24 hours.

Requires DM permission and Handle Animal skill but you can probably achieve more with that spell than you can with the entire Beastmaster archetype.

If you can find an appropriate beast, and even then the animal will likely be a pretty garbage combatant because most beasts have crap for defenses. It also completely fails to do the conceptual job, which is vastly more important.

edit: And of course, the ranger knows a garbage number of spells, so unless you’re proposing giving that spell to BMs for free, basing spells known on wisdom, or some other homebrew fix, it isn’t a fix.