D&D General What is the Ranger to you?

Gladius Legis · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Dude, the whole point of the exercise is to show that Rangers suck mechanically after 5th level. In order to do that it's pretty important to compare them (mechanically) to other classes and 'builds'.

You can build a more 'rangery' ranger (i.e. better than the Ranger at sneaking around, doing nature and surival and scouting stuff, mobile fighting and damage) by leaving Ranger and taking levels in Scout Rogue (which I am all but persuaded of the Devs thew in to mainly give Rangers a stealth buff) and Fighter.

By 5th level, youve gotten everything useful out of Ranger you're going to get. Heck; even taking 10 levels of Lore Bard after 5 levels of Ranger makes you a better Ranger - you get expertise AND plenty of extra skills, can fluff cutting words as you using your Favored enemy knowledge of the enemies against them, and gain access to the best ranger spells early thanks to Magical secrets.

You literally lose a handful of OK to meh abilities from Ranger in exchange for some vastly superior ones!

Seriously; 10 levels of ANY class is better on a Ranger 5 than taking Ranger 6-15, and if your campaign stretches to 20th, taking 15 levels of any other class other than Ranger is better after 5th.

That's a sad indictment on the Ranger class as a class.

Except neither of the builds you showed were appreciably better than a straight Ranger until well past Lv. 15. You couldn't even defend them yourself. You had to go on a red herring/non-sequitur rant about the Paladin.

The Lore Bard after 5 levels of Ranger? Doesn't get Magical Secrets until character Lv. 11 and is still on 3rd level spells at that point, 2 levels after the straight Ranger. Not to mention is MAD as hell requiring 13s in DEX, WIS and CHA. Oh, and doesn't have the Ranger archetype's key Lv. 11 offensive feature.

I never said the Ranger didn't have its issues. It most certainly does. But citing junk builds that don't mature until a level that is past most campaigns isn't helping the argument one bit.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
Except neither of the builds you showed were appreciably better than a straight Ranger until well past Lv. 15.

Yes they clearly were.

I'll start with something like Ranger 5 + Scout Rogue 3. Its better than a Ranger at being a Ranger.

You lose an ASI and a single spell of 2nd level per long rest (and 2 extra spells known). 3 HP, some useless exploration pillar abilities and the moderately useful Defensive tactics.

In exchange, you gain 3 extra skills known, Expertise in 4 of your skills (including Nature and Survival, and probably Stealth and Perception), cunning action, +2d6 sneak attack damage every single round, and Skirmish.

Or take 3 levels of BM and gain 4 sup dice per short rest, action surge, a second fighting style for a fixed +1 to AC, get your 3 HP back, and get some short rest healing with Second Wind.

Both of those options are far better than an extra 2nd level spell per day, and defensive tactics.

The Lore Bard after 5 levels of Ranger? Doesn't get Magical Secrets until character Lv. 11 and is still on 3rd level spells at that point, 2 levels after the straight Ranger.

It gets 3rd level slots at 8th level (one ahead of the Ranger).

At 11th level it has 4th level slots, 3rd level spells known. At 11th level it takes Fireball and one other. It's now got an AoE that deals as much damage as the Ranger needs to wait till 17th level to get.

I wouldnt bother seeing as it has Hypnotic pattern at this level, but hey.

Its also tossing out a few cutting words per short rest, has expertise in its ranger skills, jack of all trades and song of rest and so forth of course.

Not to mention is MAD as hell requiring 13s in DEX, WIS and CHA. Oh, and doesn't have the Ranger archetype's key Lv. 11 offensive feature.

It takes Haste as it's other magical secrets, or Magic Weapon, or a Paladin Smite spell to make up for the lack of the offensive feature.

At 15th level it can take Double arrows per bonus action spell (2 ahead of the Ranger).Not that it needs it with Polymorph, animate objects and similar being online at this level.

I never said the Ranger didn't have its issues. It most certainly does. But citing junk builds that don't mature until a level that is past most campaigns isn't helping the argument one bit.

I suggested a 'junk build' (slapping Lore Bard on Ranger) to show just how bad Ranger is. When I can pick a random class that has nothing to do with rangering, uses a totally different Stat and ranger better than the ranger with that class, something is wrong with the Ranger.

You seem to think this is me demonstrating how awesome I am at 'bulding PCs'. It's not; it's me showing you how the core Ranger sucks so bad, you can select literally any other class from 5th level and take levels in that class, and be better than the Ranger.

(Noteable exception being the XgTE Ranger subclasses; they provide some uber powerful class features, that I might even consider wading through several levels of utter trash to get).

Gladius Legis · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
I'll start with something like Ranger 5 + Scout Rogue 3. Its better than a Ranger at being a Ranger.

You lose an ASI and a single spell of 2nd level per long rest (and 2 extra spells known). 3 HP, some useless exploration pillar abilities and the moderately useful Defensive tactics.

Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer, I'll give you. The others aren't insignificant, especially the ASI and Defensive Tactics. Or Iron Will. Or Ethereal Step.

In exchange, you gain 3 extra skills known, Expertise in 4 of your skills (including Nature and Survival, and probably Stealth and Perception), cunning action, +2d6 sneak attack damage every single round, and Skirmish.

The skills are nice but hardly groundbreaking. Skirmish is situational at best. The only amazing thing you really gained was Cunning Action.

Or take 3 levels of BM and gain 4 sup dice per short rest, action surge, a second fighting style for a fixed +1 to AC, get your 3 HP back, and get some short rest healing with Second Wind.

Both of those options are far better than an extra 2nd level spell per day, and defensive tactics.

And then the very next level the straight Ranger gets Conjure Animals 2x/day. And is an ASI/feat ahead of both of your builds. That's at least even, since you want to cherry pick levels.

It gets 3rd level slots at 8th level (one ahead of the Ranger).

Only useful for upcasting. Not nearly as useful as getting a full level of actual new spells.

Its also tossing out a few cutting words per short rest, has expertise in its ranger skills, jack of all trades and song of rest and so forth of course.

It takes Haste as it's other magical secrets, or Magic Weapon, or a Paladin Smite spell to make up for the lack of the offensive feature.

Those spells are good but hardly make up for losing an at-will boost to offense.

You seem to think this is me demonstrating how awesome I am at 'bulding PCs'. It's not; it's me showing you how the core Ranger sucks so bad, you can select literally any other class from 5th level and take levels in that and be better than the Ranger.

OK, Ranger levels 6-15:
6) I'll give you this one sucks. Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, never have never will defend those features as they are.
7) Archetype feature. Defensive Tactics, Iron Will, Ethereal Step, all solid and useful. Also an extra 2nd-level spell slot, means an extra casting of something like Healing Spirit, Pass Without Trace, Silence, Spike Growth, Lesser Restoration. Good level.
8) ASI/feat. Obviously a good level.
9) 3rd-level spells. Which means Conjure Animals. Great level. Gloom Stalkers get Fear, awesome AoE control. Horizon Walkers get Haste.
10) Hide in Plain Sight and Natural Explorer III. Yup, this is a bad level.
11) Archetype feature, usually a major offensive boost. Multiattack, Stalker's Flurry, Distant Strike, all of them pretty good. Also another 3rd-level spell slot.
12) ASI/feat. Obviously good.
13) 4th-level spells. Guardian of Nature for all the advantage I want in one battle. Or Conjure Woodland Beings. All good.
14) Favored Enemy III and Vanish. I'll call this a mediocre level, rather than straight bad. Yes, Vanish is a gimped Cunning Action 12 levels later than the Rogue, but bonus-action hiding will never not be useful especially for archers.
15) Archetype feature. Most of them here are OK, not great but not bad. Average. Also an extra 4th-level slot, which is better.

So of the Ranger levels you claim are absolutely worthless, only two of them really are. And another one is mediocre. So, not quite the wasteland of character progression you want to claim it is.

Really, just redesign or replace Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer and Hide in Plain Sight with something a lot better, and maybe move Vanish to a lower level, and the class is largely fixed.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer, I'll give you. The others aren't insignificant, especially the ASI and Defensive Tactics. Or Iron Will. Or Ethereal Step.

Defensive tactics is OK but it's easily at least matched by [+1 AC from Fighting style, the odd parry or riposte from Battlemaster, and 3 x short rest bonus action heals from Second wind).

The ASI is at least matched by Action surge. If the latter was available as a feat, I take it every time.

The 1 extra 2nd level spell per long rest, is easily matched or beaten by a few Superiority dice per short rest.

Favored enemy and Natural explorer improvements you wouldnt miss if you didnt get them, and you'll probably never even use them. Id rather a single skill proficiency (even one chosen at random) over those abilities.

The skills are nice but hardly groundbreaking. Skirmish is situational at best. The only amazing thing you really gained was Cunning Action.

Expertise in Perception (and Stealth) is amazing. +2d6 sneak attack every single round is amazing. Hide at will for advantage every round is amazing (you also have pass without trace as a ranger dont forget so with expertise and a Dex of 16, you're hiding at around what... +25 to Stealth!).

I take that over an extra 3 hit points, an extra 2nd level slot per long rest, +1 ASI, 2 extra 2nd level spells known, an average defensive ability (that I probably wont use that much due to being ranged) and some useless exporation stuff (that I can work around anyway with Expertise in Perception, Nature, Stealth and Survivial!).

And then the very next level the straight Ranger gets Conjure Animals 2x/day.

Each time he casts it, his Hunters Mark drops (the main source of his damage).

The Fighter or Rogue get an ASI instead. If I had to choose (again) between 2 x Conjure animals of 3rd level per long Rest, or an ASI, I take the ASI.

You're not a half baked summoner; you're an archer (ranged damage dealer) and scout.

OK, Ranger levels 6-15:
6) I'll give you this one sucks. Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, never have never will defend those features as they are.
7) Archetype feature. Defensive Tactics, Iron Will, Ethereal Step, all solid and useful. Also an extra 2nd-level spell slot, means an extra casting of something like Healing Spirit, Pass Without Trace, Silence, Spike Growth, Lesser Restoration. Good level.
8) ASI/feat. Obviously a good level.
9) 3rd-level spells. Which means Conjure Animals. Great level. Gloom Stalkers get Fear, awesome AoE control. Horizon Walkers get Haste.
10) Hide in Plain Sight and Natural Explorer III. Yup, this is a bad level.
11) Archetype feature, usually a major offensive boost. Multiattack, Stalker's Flurry, Distant Strike, all of them pretty good. Also another 3rd-level spell slot.
12) ASI/feat. Obviously good.
13) 4th-level spells. Guardian of Nature for all the advantage I want in one battle. Or Conjure Woodland Beings. All good.
14) Favored Enemy III and Vanish. I'll call this a mediocre level, rather than straight bad. Yes, Vanish is a gimped Cunning Action 12 levels later than the Rogue, but bonus-action hiding will never not be useful especially for archers.
15) Archetype feature. Most of them here are OK, not great but not bad. Average. Also an extra 4th-level slot, which is better.

Now pick virtually any other class in the Book (with archetype).

I bet you what they get as class features from levels 6-15 are much (much) better than that list.

All the full casters smoke it. Paladin smokes it. Monk, Rogue, Warlock smoke it. Id literally take 10 levels of Battlemaster Fighter over Ranger 6-10 and be happy (and be one level away from my 3rd attack per round) or take 10 levels of Scout Rogue over those levels of Ranger (and be 1 level away from reliable talent).

Seriously, the only way that list looks even close to OK is if you use Xanathars subclasses to add extra spells known (and the better spells from that book), and the pretty sick class features of the Gloomstalker and the Monster Slayer.

You still have to wade through a lot of trash to get those good abilities though, and Gloomstalker is pretty front loaded also (and screaming to be combined with Assasin).

Monster Slayer is the only Ranger archetype that is worth hanging to later levels, and dealing with trash levels, for its features.

Even then, when I hit Monster Slayer 15, Im likely taking the remaining 5 levels in another class (Fighter and Rogue in some combination).

The Ranger capstone is so bad that I'd rather take Rogue and/ or Fighter levles to round out my skills and fighting abilities.

About the only thing I would miss would be Steel Wind strike for a reasonable AoE, and maybe Swift Quiver (but between sneak attack and action surge, and saving concentration for Hunters Mark, and saving my bonus action each round for cunning action +advantage from hiding, I could made do!).

Gladius Legis · Jul 13, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Defensive tactics is OK but it's easily at least matched by [+1 AC from Fighting style, the odd parry or riposte from Battlemaster, and 3 x short rest bonus action heals from Second wind).

The ASI is at least matched by Action surge. If the latter was available as a feat, I take it every time.

The 1 extra 2nd level spell per long rest, is easily matched or beaten by a few Superiority dice per short rest.

It's not magnitudes superior. Not enough to make multiclassing a no-brainer choice.

Favored enemy and Natural explorer improvements you wouldnt miss if you didnt get them, and you'll probably never even use them. Id rather a single skill proficiency (even one chosen at random) over those abilities.

Did you see me defending those abilities? No? Then why do you keep bringing them up? I've long acknowledged they suck. But dismissing everything else is stupid.

Expertise in Perception (and Stealth) is amazing. +2d6 sneak attack every single round is amazing.

They're good, but it's still a tradeoff.

Each time he casts it, his Hunters Mark drops (the main source of his damage).

The Fighter or Rogue get an ASI instead. If I had to choose (again) between 2 x Conjure animals of 3rd level per long Rest, or an ASI, I take the ASI.

You're not a half baked summoner; you're an archer (ranged damage dealer) and scout.

And gains a lot more damage in return for giving up Hunter's Mark. One of those summoned animals can even use the Help action to give the Ranger advantage on his first attack next turn.

Conjure Animals is most definitely worth at least as much if not more than an ASI.

Now pick virtually any other class in the Book (with archetype).

I bet you what they get as class features from levels 6-15 are much (much) better than that list.

Many of them are perhaps better. Not so much better (aside from levels 6 and 10) that multiclassing is an absolute must, though.

Again, replace or repair Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer and Hide in Plain Sight, and you mostly fix the Ranger class.

Monster Slayer is the only Ranger archetype that is worth hanging to later levels, and dealing with trash levels, for its features.

lol, Monster Slayer is the weakest XGtE archetype by far, dude.

Flamestrike · Jul 13, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
I
Conjure Animals is most definitely worth at least as much if not more than an ASI.

You're a 9th level Ranger. 4 x black bears, 2 Dire wolves, or 1 Sabre tooth tiger is probably the best option at a glance (there may be others). From memory, our Druid used it (at 5th level) to summon a giant constrictor (actually Huge from memory).

At this level, they'd be lucky to last a single encounter (of which you're getting 6 or so per adventuring day as a median average going by the DMG). I guess the Wolves can knock stuff prone (not that this helps you as ranged guy that much), and they provide a HP sink (other than a PC losing HP).

It's a good spell. The fact it uses your concentration is a bummer (and drops if your concentration drops, or if you short rest seeing as it only lasts an hour).

lol, Monster Slayer is the weakest XGtE archetype by far, dude.

No, it's not. Banishment and Hold monster are fantastic spells.

At 15th level you get an at will +1d6 to saving throw effects (all of them) from your target, and get to shoot your target if it forces you to make a save as a reaction, auto-passing the save if you hit. A 1/ short rest counterspell is nice also.

For a mage slayer, or against a nasty single target, those abilities (and spells) are awesome.

DM: Make a save against...
Ranger: Thwack, made it. Take damage or [you miss] add +1d6 to your save.

That's a nice set of abilities to have.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

@Flamestrike

You have the strangest idea's about optimization, balance and mechanics I've ever encountered

To the OP:
Conceptually a ranger is a non-holy warrior that protects his range, usually a wilderness expanse but it wouldn't be surprising to conceive of a ranger in a more urban setting protecting particular areas there.

They are sometimes depicted as possessing a supernatural connection to their range and sometimes can even call wildlife there to their aid.

Flamestrike · Jul 13, 2019

FrogReaver said:
@Flamestrike

You have the strangest idea's about optimization, balance and mechanics I've ever encountered

I was literally just talking up +1d6 to a save at will, and 'auto pass a save while also attacking the caster/ origin of the save' abilities as being great.

In the other thread we're chatting in, you're bemoaning the lack of abilities of some classes (the fighter) to pass high DC saves in poor ability scores when non Proficient.

The Monster Hunter auto passes every save he wants to (1/ round anyway), simply by using a reaction and shooting (and hitting) the target at the same time. Even if he misses he gets +1d6 to the save.

DC 50 intelligence save or be stunned you say? [Thwack]. Made it. Take X damage.

Im a little bewildered by your sudden appearance in this thread, and the above comments.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 13, 2019

FrogReaver said:
@Flamestrike

You have the strangest idea's about optimization, balance and mechanics I've ever encountered

To the OP:
Conceptually a ranger is a non-holy warrior that protects his range, usually a wilderness expanse but it wouldn't be surprising to conceive of a ranger in a more urban setting protecting particular areas there.

They are sometimes depicted as possessing a supernatural connection to their range and sometimes can even call wildlife there to their aid.

If foruming can teach us anything about balance and optimization, it’s that few people agree on it.

also that’s a great and succinct description of the ranger concept.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

Flamestrike said:
I was literally just talking up +1d6 to a save at will, and 'auto pass a save while also attacking the caster/ origin of the save' abilities as being great.

Yea, you keep getting stuck so much on the trees that you are missing the forest. You just throw darts at the dart board hoping 1 sticks.