D&D General What is the Ranger to you?

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I like the cleric being more of a militant divine character, so I see it distinct from a mage. Priests give sermons in their temples... clerics venture forth and bash undead with martial might and divine rage. Traditionally, clerics have always been either front line combatants or a good back up for when the fighter needs to pull back.

In fact, I consider Paladins unnecessary.

Perhaps if we had mechanics for Oaths that induce power.

The oath bound hero has legend and myth surrounding it the oaths are not necessarily very D&D like in many cases ... For example Sampson (symbolic divine oath about hygiene), Cu Cuhlaine (totemic oath opposed by social oath), Lancelot (oath to king and queen but also something about never being defeated as long as he fights on the side of righteousness in conflict with his desire to be challenged) now only one of them are associated with Knight in shining armor but.

A fighter or anyone really could then accept an Oath which then empowers him like an enchantment. It was considered a Fighter subclass all the way back.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

WaterRabbit

Explorer
Perhaps if we had mechanics for Oaths that induce power.

The oath bound hero has legend and myth surrounding it the oaths are not necessarily very D&D like in many cases ... For example Sampson (symbolic divine oath about hygiene), Cu Cuhlaine (totemic oath opposed by social oath), Lancelot (oath to king and queen but also something about never being defeated as long as he fights on the side of righteousness in conflict with his desire to be challenged) now only one of them are associated with Knight in shining armor but.

A fighter or anyone really could then accept an Oath which then empowers him like an enchantment. It was considered a Fighter subclass all the way back.

Sure, an oath would fall under the archetype for the character. Their have always been implied oaths in character classes: paladins, monks, druids, clerics, and now warlocks. All have implied or explicit oaths built-in.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Sure, an oath would fall under the archetype for the character. Their have always been implied oaths in character classes: paladins, monks, druids, clerics, and now warlocks. All have implied or explicit oaths built-in.
It could be within the archetype... it doesnt have to be that tightly bound though

For instance one of the Martial Practices I made up is called Oath of Independence that is kind of "an" oath about not becoming dependent on magic items. Appropriate for some Paladins/Fighters, Monks and Barbarians and reaffirming it by destroying a magic items allows one to acquire abilities.(ok akin to the ones in magic items lol)
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
It could be within the archetype... it doesnt have to be that tightly bound though

For instance one of the Martial Practices I made up is called Oath of Independence that is kind of "an" oath about not becoming dependent on magic items. Appropriate for some Paladins/Fighters, Monks and Barbarians and reaffirming it by destroying a magic items allows one to acquire abilities.(ok akin to the ones in magic items lol)

Right, but that is just an archetype of those classes -- the archetype that eschews magic. An archetype isn't limited to a single class or background. Literally an archetype is how you do the class. The only thing you are doing is giving a bonus for the oath instead of a penalty. This is how the monk is setup. You gain these powers (flurry of blows, etc.) if you don't wear armor.

The gaining abilities as permanent powers by destroying items seems really good though -- probably too good.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
No they get Pathfinder! :)

With respect, Pathfinder is not what you get when you go after D&D with an axe. Pathfinder is what you get when you go after D&D with spackle and Bondo. The entire frame is still there - there's just some shaping that's been done.
 

Celebrim

Legend
In fact, I consider Paladins unnecessary.

For me the standard in a base class is that you could have a group of six players show up for session 0, and each one wants to play a character with the same class, but each player wants to play an obviously distinctive character with their own separate shtick.

For some classes it's fairly obvious how you could do that. You could have six wizards for example each of which has their own school or theme of magic that they specialize in. Likewise with cleric if the rules supported it well, you could have six clerics each of a different deity who would be as different as the deities they served. Or you might have six rogues, each of which specialized in a different sort of larceny, forming a heist team.

In many editions though, this has not been something supported well by the game. 5e has made a step in the right direction by bringing back subclasses and making subclasses for all base classes, but traditionally classes like fighter, barbarian, druid, ranger, monk, and paladin have failed my test - if for slightly different reasons. Fighter fails the test because for the most part it's been pigeon holed into a very narrow list of things it is good at, which I think does an injustice to the class. Barbarian, druid, ranger, and paladin though to me all fail the test because they all have tried to define what is basically a character concept and not a base class. It's telling that most of those began life as subclasses themselves.

There is a fix here, but it's a radical one. I think you have to pull back from your preconceptions and ask if something like Paladin is a subclass of some base class, what base class is it really a specific implementation of. And my answer for that is NOT fighter or cleric.

To me a Paladin is a specific concept or subclass of the base class 'Champion', which I define as a class in which the source of power of the character is being selected to represent some idea as the idealized representation of that idea. A Paladin for example is a Champion of Justice and Righteousness. This is similar to but distinctive from a Cleric of Justice and Righteousness, though presumably the Deity of Justice and Righteousness might want both priestly servants and heroic representatives. When you view Paladin as a sort of Champion, it becomes immediately obvious how you might have a party of six champions each of which is very different than the other. It also becomes obvious why Paladin isn't a subclass of fighter, since the rules overhead in supporting each Champion concept as a separate subclass of fighter is much larger than the overhead in supporting each Champion subclass. All of these Champion subclasses will have much more in common with each other than they will ever have with other fighter subclasses.

As further evidence, I submit that all the Blackgaurd, Anti-Paladins, Paladins of Freedom and other attempts to create variant paladins we've seen over the years that are like a Paladin but symbolize different things and beliefs, are just the general recognition by the community that there was something wrong with the paladin implementation that they couldn't quite pin down. I didn't know what the solution was until I saw Green Ronin's 'Book of the Righteousness' and it's 'Holy Warrior' class. But the problem with that class is that it didn't build the class in such a way that you could create your own concept by mixing and matching different ideas - they basically just outlined classes specific to the setting. So I set out to rewrite that class in a way that you could in fact generalize the concept.
 
Last edited:

Celebrim

Legend
The oath bound hero has legend and myth surrounding it the oaths are not necessarily very D&D like in many cases ... For example Sampson (symbolic divine oath about hygiene), Cu Cuhlaine (totemic oath opposed by social oath), Lancelot (oath to king and queen but also something about never being defeated as long as he fights on the side of righteousness in conflict with his desire to be challenged) now only one of them are associated with Knight in shining armor but.

All of these would be Champions in my conception. I call the particular selection of powers related to what the champion can do that is distinctive from other champions a 'Portfolio', but 'Oath' is a very good term and perhaps in some ways even better.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Right, but that is just an archetype of those classes -- the archetype that eschews magic. An archetype isn't limited to a single class or background. Literally an archetype is how you do the class. The only thing you are doing is giving a bonus for the oath instead of a penalty. This is how the monk is setup. You gain these powers (flurry of blows, etc.) if you don't wear armor.

The gaining abilities as permanent powers by destroying items seems really good though -- probably too good.
It's mostly as balanced as selling one magic item and buying another ...and the ability doesn't scale unless you invest more into it... so you gain a level 5 appropriate ability but you adventured and are now level 12 it isn't very shiny any more ...you also have limits just like attunement and cannot share it
 
Last edited:

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
All of these would be Champions in my conception. I call the particular selection of powers related to what the champion can do that is distinctive from other champions a 'Portfolio', but 'Oath' is a very good term and perhaps in some ways even better.
There are a few more commonalities each used a form of berserkergang at one point or another for instance. I considered lesser oaths associated with each power in the portfolio... but mostly for flavor purposes honor, totem, chivalry, purity being categories for instance
 

Remove ads

Top