D&D General The perfect D&D edition (according to ENWORLD)

Tony Vargas

Legend
Unlike Mystic, rapiers, drow, and some of the nuttier races, which I don't like for reasons mostly of flavor (and maybe some mechanical weirdness) the problem with Warlords is that they are, be definition and design, leaders. The whole concept is built around the idea that one member of the team isn't actually a peer, but is better than them. That the other characters are drawn to his/her leadership and charisma and knowledge.
I'm sorry feel that way about it, but be aware that your perception is not aligned with the explicit explanation of the class & it's role. The 4e PH, straight up spelled out that the "Leader" role was not a party-leader, but a support position. The Cleric & Bard were also "Leaders," for instance.

I would invite you to stop spreading this misinformation, which was also a feature of edition warring, as well as being factually false and insulting to anyone who might want to play a character of that class.

Want to grant somebody an attack? Have an ability that forces a monster to trigger opportunity attacks.
The Warlord had an at-will that did exactly that, in the PH.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
I'm sorry feel that way about it, but be aware that your perception is not aligned with the explicit explanation of the class & it's role. The 4e PH, straight up spelled out that the "Leader" role was not a party-leader, but a support position. The Cleric & Bard were also "Leaders," for instance.

I would invite you to stop spreading this misinformation, which was also a feature of edition warring, as well as being factually false and insulting to anyone who might want to play a character of that class.

The Warlord had an at-will that did exactly that, in the PH.

What's the misinformation?

You're making it sound like the my only basis for the "leader" thing is the name of the role. I wasn't even referring to that. I was referring to the way the class is repeatedly described/fluffed.

Now, maybe you don't do that, and maybe it doesn't *have* to be that way, but over and over (and over and over and over) again, proponents of the Warlord describe it that way. Every single homebrew I've looked at uses language like "your natural leadership" or "you give a command to your teammate". Forum posters constantly compare the Warlord officers (for example, using the famous yelling scene Patton to explain how martial healing works.)

If you don't like the stereotype I hold, let's see you jump all over those people for posting that way, instead of accusing me of misinformation.

The Warlord had an at-will that did exactly that, in the PH.

That's what I'm saying. The mechanics are completely implementable without resorting to the unacceptable archetypes. But you should be telling your pro-Warlord peers that, not me.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
I use a completely different thematic for the mechanics of warlord. My ''warlord-y'' class is called the Companion. I often found that the idea that nobody would want to play the helper, the loyal friend or trusty sidekick to be false. I guessed that I'm probably not alone in wanting to play in the role of Samwise Gamgee, the resilient, loyal, helpful companion of more ''martial'' characters, but still as heroic as the rest of them. Its a class with a little more emphasis on the social and exploration pillars than you would expect a regular warlord, but it still has some battle application.

See, I love that. I would be vastly more open to a tactical/supporty class that was fluffed this way. And would be interested in playing it myself. Let the Companion's devotion to his/her companions fuel his abilities, not their devotion to him.

I once posted a tongue-in-cheek "Caddy" class. Or a "Jeeves", maybe.
"Don't worry, sir, you'll get him next time."
"May I suggest the two-handed sword, sir?"
"Right-o, let me mop up the blood and you'll be right as rain. I think you have him on the run."
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
What's the misinformation?
That "leader" in the 4e Role or Warlord concept = character will be "party leader" or player will be bossing other players around.

We have had long conversations explaining this too you in detail why that it is not a case. That the 'leadership' provided in concept by the warlord does not amount to being party leader, does not imply an unequal social relationship (unlike, say the Noble background) and does not imply one player bossing others around. Yet you continue to express these groundless fears.

You cannot plead ignorance or absence for the edition war any longer, you are spreading misinformation. I invite you, again, to stop.

Of course, you can always use the old dodge of ranting for a whole post like what you're saying is true, then dropping a desultory IMHO at the end.

But, seriously, I have had enough of this dictating what other people can play agenda you're pushing. It's derogatory and offensive.

If you don't care for an edition, role, class or class concept, fine, don't play it, don't opt into it if it ever appears as an option, but stop begrudging others the opportunity to do so.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
That "leader" in the 4e Role or Warlord concept = character will be "party leader" or player will be bossing other players around.

We have had long conversations explaining this too you in detail why that it is not a case. That the 'leadership' provided in concept by the warlord does not amount to being party leader, does not imply an unequal social relationship (unlike, say the Noble background) and does not imply one player bossing others around. Yet you continue to express these groundless fears.

You cannot plead ignorance or absence for the edition war any longer, you are spreading misinformation. I invite you, again, to stop.

Of course, you can always use the old dodge of ranting for a whole post like what you're saying is true, then dropping a desultory IMHO at the end.

But, seriously, I have had enough of this dictating what other people can play agenda you're pushing. It's derogatory and offensive.

Would it help if I started saying "officer" instead of "leader"? Because the falsehood you keep repeating, despite being told many times that it's not true, is that the basis for my view is the "Leader" designation in 4e.

No, my basis is the very consistent portrayal of the class by its proponents.

If you don't care for an edition, role, class or class concept, fine, don't play it, don't opt into it if it ever appears as an option, but stop begrudging others the opportunity to do so.

I'm not begrudging you the opportunity at all! Pick your favorite homebrew and have at it!

Why do you require it to be official, unless it is to ensure that some day I'll be stuck at a table with one of these? Because, after all, what I'm resisting is not having to play this class, but of having to play with it. Are you trying to impose your values on my games? (I'm being facetious of course, in the hope that you'll perceive how hollow your reasoning is.)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Mearles: hmmmmmm grabs thesaurus

Warlord
File file file ... crunch crunch War = Battle file file file Lord = Master

Battlemaster.


Tadah... its not great at doing Warlord stuff... lets give some of its stuff to other characters because this is tanky / strikey fighter in spades
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I use a completely different thematic for the mechanics of warlord. r

I made up a build called it a Princess Build - it was also known as a Lazy-lord by someone else who basically came up with it themselves. It was the meekest of flavor you can imagine and for all intents and purpose non-combatant.

Priests were higher rank than the Nobility (a background anyone can take) and either could have the rest of the party thrown in jail and you know and Paladins were the elite knights just under the King and could do the throwing.

Flavor is entirely up in the Air in D&D unless you are a selfish e-warrior who's goal is primarily depriving others of their fun.

My favorite Warlord might actually be Mulan ;) but don't tell anyone.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Would it help if I started saying "officer" instead of "leader"?
No, because the concept of the Warlord is not a military officer with a rank. That's the 5e Soldier Background, that might give you a rank.

Because the falsehood you keep repeating, despite being told many times that it's not true, is that the basis for my view is the "Leader" designation in 4e.
Neither the name of the Role, nor the concept of the class, imply a party leader in a superior position in the fiction, nor the player commanding or leading other players. Those are your objections, they are both false. Saying that you make false assertions only on the basis of one of two thing that in no way support them does not absolve you of their falsehood.

Stop repeating things that aren't true.

If you must express your fears of someday possibly sitting at a table where someone mis-plays a Warlord as an obligatory party leaders and starts trying to boss you around, express them as such, irrational fears on your part with no grounding in the history, mechanics or concept of the class. Fears that, were they plausible, would already be manifest in 5e thanks to the inclusion of Backgrounds like the Noble.

No, my basis is the very consistent portrayal of the class by its proponents.
The idea of a Warlord or a character with the Inspiring Leadership feat, is to provide 'leadership' in the sense that, today, outside of the context of the battlefield, might be called 'facilitation.' It's separate from the sense of legitimate authority implied by military rank.

I'm not begrudging you the opportunity at all! Pick your favorite homebrew and have at it!

Why do you require it to be official
Why wish any class to be official? So you can roll up a character, or convert an old one from a prior edition and play at any table using those rules. Fans of every other class that was ever in a PH1 enjoy that privilege. Fans of the Psion and Artificer are in line to receive it, even though those classes were never in a PH1.

It is in no way unreasonable to want an excellent, past-edition-PH1 class that fills a role and models concepts that currently are accessible only in the palest, most limited shadowy forms, to finally rise to the level of option-in-the-pipeline-that-may-still-never-see-print that the Psion & Artificer currently enjoy.

Seriously, that is an /excessively/ reasonable thing to ask for.

Unless it is to ensure that some day I'll be stuck at a table with one of these? Because, after all, what I'm resisting is not having to play this class, but of having to play with it.
That is a flimsy pretext on which to dictate to /everyone/ how to play the game.

If, by some outrageous coincidence, you were to play at a table with someone who wanted to play a Warlord, then, like Lowkey13 confronted with a fellow player intent on reprising Cyragnome DeBergerac as a rapier-dual-wielding Paladin, you'd, at worst, face the daunting prospect of having a mature conversation with him about what you both want out of the game.

That you want that conversation concluded by the rules, in your favor, is, frankly, the exact same kind of "bossing other players around" that you fear from the very hypothetical mis-playing of a warlord - only you want to do it to everyone who will ever play the game.

Again, I invite you to stop doing that.
 
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Guest 6801328

Guest
No, because the concept of the Warlord is not a military officer with a rank. That's the 5e Soldier Background, that might give you a rank.

Neither the name of the Role, nor the concept of the class, imply a party leader in a superior position in the fiction, nor the player commanding or leading other players. Those are your objections, they are both false. Saying that you make false assertions only on the basis of one of two thing that in no way support them does not absolve you of their falsehood.

Stop repeating things that aren't true.

If you must express your fears of someday possibly sitting at a table where someone mis-plays a Warlord as an obligatory party leaders and starts trying to boss you around, express them as such, irrational fears on your part with no grounding in the history, mechanics or concept of the class. Fears that, were they plausible, would already be manifest in 5e thanks to the inclusion of Backgrounds like the Noble.

The idea of a Warlord or a character with the Inspiring Leadership feat, is to provide 'leadership' in the sense that, today, outside of the context of the battlefield, might be called 'facilitation.' It's separate from the sense of legitimate authority implied by military rank.

Why is it that in your responses you never address the evidence I repeatedly cite? Namely all the content out there (forum posts, homebrews, etc.) that describe the Warlord pretty much exactly like I'm claiming? You keep falling back on this "The Leader was not literally a Leader" thing. Is that really your only response to my observations about how it's portrayed in the community?

Again, if you don't like that characterization, go attack those people for their misperceptions, not me for taking the preponderance of evidence at face value.

Why wish any class to be official? So you can roll up a character, or convert an old one from a prior edition and play at any table using those rules. Fans of every other class that was ever in a PH1 enjoy that privilege. Fans of the Psion and Artificer are in line to receive it, even though those classes were never in a PH1.

That is a flimsy pretext on which to dictate to /everyone/ how to play the game.

If, by some outrageous coincidence, you were to play at a table with someone who wanted to play a Warlord, then, like Lowkey13 confronted with a fellow player intent on reprising Cyragnome DeBergerac as a rapier-dual-wielding Paladin, you'd, at worst, face the daunting prospect of having a mature conversation with him about what you both want out of the game.

That you want that conversation concluded by the rules, in your favor, is, frankly, the exact same kind of "bossing other players around" that you fear from the very hypothetical mis-playing of a warlord - only you want to do it to everyone who will ever play the game.

Again, I invite you to stop doing that.


Do you really and truly not understand how my argument that you dismiss is perfectly symmetric to yours? Or do you really believe that "being forced to play a class" is the only possible form of imposition?

Look, I know from your past posts that it's REALLY important to you to have strictly non-magical powers. Not re-fluffed magical powers, but really and truly non-magical ones. I don't get that, but, hey, you have a right to wish for that. That's your thing.

My thing is that I really don't like being told what my character thinks. And so many things about the Warlord...again, the versions I see today, not whatever was in some book 15 years ago...simply scream "your character admires/obeys this other person's character." So in my mind that is you dictating to me how to play. My only option is to mentally re-fluff it into magic (or something), which is exactly what you yourself refuse to do regarding magical healing.

Be careful getting down from that high horse. It's a long drop.
 


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