D&D General The perfect D&D edition (according to ENWORLD)

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Provide links to any such you find here on ENWorld, and I'd be happy to do so.

So I finally got around this. I did a Google search, restricted to enworld.org, for "What is a Warlord?" Top result was this old thread:
https://www.enworld.org/forum/showt...-s-a-Warlord-Never-heard-of-this-class-before

The first few posts were mostly just enumerations of mechanics without much of anything about the underlying concept, but post #5 led with this:
The primary concept was as a tactically brilliant and/or inspiring battle-leader...

Maybe I'm parsing this wrong, but it looks awfully like the author meant to imply an actual leader, not just "Leader role from 4e." 'Cause otherwise he would have said that, right? Maybe not the formal leader of the party in the sense that they get to make the decisions and other players have to obey, but certainly somebody who derives their powers from leadership, whether through brilliance or inspiration.

So, yeah, go correct that guy. I'll be waiting.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Maybe I'm parsing this wrong,
seems like, or ignoring a distinction...
but it looks awfully like the author meant to imply an actual leader, not just "Leader role from 4e." 'Cause otherwise he would have said that, right?
I think we need to clarify something, here, though I just said it up thread, it may have been too brief or off-handed.

There are two senses of leader that apply to the warlord, legitimately, as contrasted to the unacceptable senses of class choice dictating party leadership/superiority/authority in the fiction or conferring the privilege of bossing fellow players around at the table.
One, is the 4e Leader role, which /explicitly/ denies the objectionable senses.
The other is conceptual: the warlord has leadership skills, in the PH1, either Tactical or Inspirational, beyond the ordinary. Which is independent of the objectionable senses.

The ability to inspire or see tactical opportunity is of great utility to a leader, but one can be in a superior social position of formal leadership and authority without an iota of either, or at the bottom of the social pyramid with a surfeit of both. The former case can be disastrous (or not), the latter, those potentials can languish unless there are willing equals or even social superiors able to recognize and take advantage of them.

Maybe not the formal leader of the party in the sense that they get to make the decisions and other players have to obey
Formal leader in a superior position, though, is the sense you're objecting to. Battle-leader clearly limits it to combat, not really problematic, and tactical or inspiring to the abilities of the original PH1 version. It's a brief, but not unreasonable, beginning if an explanation of the class (obviously, selectively quoted out of context, to maximize the impression you were searching for - actually, it's amazing that's all you could come up with, ENWarlord fans must have fewer bad eggs than I thought).


Keep looking, but in the interest of not bringing on a zombie-warlord-apocalypse of thread necromancy, maybe not so far back?

But certainly somebody who derives their powers from leadership, whether through brilliance or inspiration.
As a martial class, the Warlord derived it's abilities from martial ability, the talents and skills - not the position or authority - of leadership.


When people say "But any class could be a leader," that's mainly true in the objectionable sense of the arrogant Noble or bossy player - taking up the position, without the mechanical support.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
But I want to experience 3e

No clue what changes they have made though so a largely unjustified assumption
True, though [MENTION=6688049]Dungeonosophy[/MENTION] 's addition of Tieflings, Dragonborn and Warlocks doesn't bode well... :)

Tony Vargas said:
There's a lot of that in D&Ds history, it was trying to get away from the D&D Cleric / MMO healer steroetypes, I'm sure.
Taking a support role and calling it leader, however, is pretty much flat-out misrepresentation. Better, perhaps, to actually call the role 'Support' or 'Foundation' or something equally as descriptive of what it really does, hm?

Garthanos said:
To me a feat cost would make class dipping much harder.
Anything that cuts down on, or eliminates, class dipping is worth exploring.

Simplest answer, of course, it to outright ban any character from having three or more classes (in 4e-5e; in 3e it'd have to be four or more to allow for two starting classes and a later prestige class). Easy enough to explain away in the fiction: a character only has so much time to devote to ongoing study, training and practice and can't maintain it for more than two classes.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Taking a support role and calling it leader, however, is pretty much flat-out misrepresentation. Better, perhaps, to actually call the role 'Support' or 'Foundation' or something equally as descriptive of what it really does, hm?
Not if the alternative is lame, unevocative or pulled straight from MMO speak (or we'd have Agro, Healer, DPS, & Crowd Control).
And, it isn't completely off: good leaders do get superior results from their allies, support classes can deliver that.

Nor is it that far off base, conceptually: Clerics, Druids and Shamans could be 'religious leaders,' for instance...
...Though I can't see how to stretch it to the Bard or Artificer. ;)

Anything that cuts down on, or eliminates, class dipping is worth exploring.
In 5e, just dont opt into MCing.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
seems like, or ignoring a distinction...
I think we need to clarify something, here, though I just said it up thread, it may have been too brief or off-handed.

There are two senses of leader that apply to the warlord, legitimately, as contrasted to the unacceptable senses of class choice dictating party leadership/superiority/authority in the fiction or conferring the privilege of bossing fellow players around at the table.
One, is the 4e Leader role, which /explicitly/ denies the objectionable senses.
The other is conceptual: the warlord has leadership skills, in the PH1, either Tactical or Inspirational, beyond the ordinary. Which is independent of the objectionable senses.

The ability to inspire or see tactical opportunity is of great utility to a leader, but one can be in a superior social position of formal leadership and authority without an iota of either, or at the bottom of the social pyramid with a surfeit of both. The former case can be disastrous (or not), the latter, those potentials can languish unless there are willing equals or even social superiors able to recognize and take advantage of them.

Formal leader in a superior position, though, is the sense you're objecting to. Battle-leader clearly limits it to combat, not really problematic.

Keep looking, but in the interest of not bringing on a zombie-warlord-apocalypse of thread necromancy, maybe not so far back?

As a martial class, the Warlord derived it's abilities from martial ability, the talents and skills - not the position or authority - of leadership.


When people say "But any class could be a leader," that's mainly true in the objectionable sense of the arrogant Noble or bossy player - taking up the position, without the mechanical support.

There's a second misconception you seem to have: I'm not worried about players actually being bossy around the table because their character is the Leader. I mean, it might happen, but any player who would do that is likely to be obnoxious anyway, regardless of the class they are playing, right? For me it's 100% the connotation for what's happening in the fiction, not the mechanics of what's happening at the table (again, sort of you and "non-magical").

I laughed when that particular quote is literally the first supporting evidence I came across, so quoting it was a little bit tongue-in-cheek. But what stands out for me in this debate is your complete unwillingness to admit the existence of what I'm describing. Maybe you don't think there's a connotation of "officers" giving "orders" to their peers, and of bestowing healing on them because of their "natural leadership", but a lot of people do. You totally ignored this quote from a few pages ago:
"Collapsing to the ground, a man succumbs to wounds,exhaustion, terror, and the overwhelming by the clash of steel
all around. Death closes in, but before it can claim him, a hand
appears, pulling him to his feet.

"On your feet, solider"
I find it hard to believe you haven't noticed that this portrayal of the Warlord is so common as to maybe be the norm.
 

Nevvur

Explorer
I'd go the other way. I want a compelling mechanical difference between arcane and divine casting. Whether or not you have access to the whole spelllist isn't a very interesting distinction.

That'd be fine. Would be even better IMO if there were also a compelling mechanical difference between fighting styles, but I don't see that trend bucking anytime soon either. Let's dream!


Just the two most generic classes: Fighter & Magic-User, with everything else sitting under them? At that point you just have a dichotomy between two kinds of classes.

Also, unless you vastly upgraded the Fighter and/or reined in the Magic-User, you'd just have a d20 Ars Magica.

Which, y'know, at least had the virtue of being up-front about the role of a Grog.

I think that would be a great start for all level 1 characters, then for character progression options to provide a path toward your preferred play style, with your core class identity established by level 3.

Again though, I imagine I'm in the minority with the preferences I stated, and I'll almost certainly be running my own system before a sixth edition of DnD comes out, besides.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
How do you get from "there's this one character concept that I don't want to interact with" to "no reference to other players"?

My thing is that I really don't like being told what my character thinks. And so many things about the Warlord...again, the versions I see today, not whatever was in some book 15 years ago...simply scream "your character admires/obeys this other person's character." So in my mind that is you dictating to me how to play. My only option is to mentally re-fluff it into magic (or something), which is exactly what you yourself refuse to do regarding magical healing.
Maybe this isn't what you intend, but "I don't like being told what my character thinks" comes across as "I'm not going to accommodate your concept by being flexible with my character concept." As I said, that doesn't fly in my games. If you want to play the ranger that hates orcs in a party with a half-orc, we work out how we want to approach it before play starts. Maybe they want the tension to exist in-game to further their narratives, or maybe one of them changes their concept.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
There's a second misconception you seem to have: I'm not worried about players actually being bossy around the table because their character is the Leader
Its an objection I seem to recall you harping on in the past. That, superiority, social position, and authority, implied by a formal position of leadership

But I've no problem with you withdrawing an objection.

For me it's 100% the connotation for what's happening in the fiction, not the mechanics of what's happening at the table (again, sort of you and "non-magical").
Magic or not, whether you're talking martial (uncontroversially non-magical) or psionic (has gone either way) has mechanical consequences and meaning beyond connotations.

. But what stands out for me in this debate is your complete unwillingness to admit the existence of what I'm describing.
Maybe you'll have to describe it better. Did you understand the distinction between the concept of leadership as an extraordinary skill set vs a position of authority?

Maybe you don't think there's a connotation of "officers" giving "orders" to their peers, and of bestowing healing on them because of their "natural leadership"
An officer exercising leadership skills is certainly a familiar example of such abilities. But, there are natural leaders with no authority, and officers with no such skills.
So those sorts of examples are of the abilities being exercised, not the authority held. Heck, in some instances authority could make it easier - or harder.

And, I have gone on record, repeatedly, that alternate names for the class based on military ranks are poor choices for that reason, they carry an implication of formal authority that the class and it's abilities neither model nor require, and would narrow it's concept unduly.
 
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Perfect D&D 6E:


  • WotC adopts Pathfinder Second Edition more or less in whole cloth. haha (Just adds Tiefling, Dragonborn, Warlock, etc.)
  • At the same time, WotC produces a super-streamlined but fully-fledged TRPG which is way simpler than even the existing 5E Basic Rules. Something along the lines of The Black Hack and Heroes & Monsters RPG or even Tails of Equestria. As a separate game line which is compatible or convertible with the usual "complex" D&D. See: ND&D (Novellic D&D) and SD&D (Simply D&D) and CD&D (Chainmail D&D).
  • The D&D Multiverse is made into a full-blown world-hopping meta-setting via a Crisis on Infinite Oerths storyline, which brings back all the D&D Worlds in a big way, and synchronizes all of the timelines. Everything from Pelinore of TSR Uk, to Mystara, to Council of Wyrms, to Mike Mearl's Nerath, to the world(s?) of D&D Movies (e.g. Izmir), to the Dream World of the Hebrew Basic D&D modules, to the Motherland of the LJN AD&D Action Figures, and QuestWorld of the TSR Endless Quest Gamebooks.
  • Brings back the Realm of the D&D Cartoon Show as a campaign setting, and the players play themselves! As we escape from the Realm, we explore other D&D Worlds.
  • Produces gigantic telephone-book sized series of reference works, right out of the gate: Spell Compendium 6E (all the spells from all editions), Encyclopedia Magica 6E (all magic items from all editions), Monstrous Compendium 6E (overseen by ENWorld's Echohawk!)
  • Hires a linguist (e.g. Mark Okrand, creator of Klingonese) to flesh out all of the key languages of the D&D Multiverse.
  • Hurries up and opens up all of the D&D Worlds to DMs Guild fan-publishing.
  • Let Bruce Heard write the 5E Mystara worldbook, like WotC tapped Keith Baker to write the 5E Eberron book on DMs Guild. Do the same for the other D&D Worlds...tap a team of grognards: for Greyhawk worldbook: A. Grohe, Luke Gygax, and/or Eric Mona.
  • As has been done with DMs Guild and the new D&D fan-crafting site, open up a site for fan-authored D&D Fiction (novels and short-stories), D&D Comic Books, and D&D Music.
  • Alongside the D&D Multiverse meta-setting, each DM is encouraged to build their own campaign setting from the start, instead of shoehorning everyone into the Forgotten Realms. For example, all proper names in the 6E Starter Set are enclosed in brackets: [Phandolin], [Neverwinter], [Oghma], which signals that you're supposed to choose your own name. And there's an appendix in the back with a table of alternate names to randomly choose from, and suggestions for how to invent a name: Like: "For Oghma, write in the name of the God of Knowledge in your world."
  • A Worldbuilders Guidebook is released from the start, which actually reverse engineers all previous D&D settings, so that a DM could randomly roll them up, or a gonzo mixture thereof...or a world with a theme which has never been seen before. Even the campaign setting names and logos can be rolled up: e.g. Dragonhawk, Greylance, The Known Realms, Forgotten Sun, Dark Coast, Hollow Oerth, etc.
  • Issues an LARP / cosplay D&D rulebook.
  • Brings back Blackmoor.
  • Releases the second place winner of the WotC Setting Search (after Eberron).
  • Open up homemade settings to DMs Guild.
  • For a modest fee, DMs can register their world, which then exists as a crystal sphere within the official D&D Multiverse. Otherwise, all DM's campaigns are considered to be a separate Multiverses.
  • Include James Wyatt's worlds in the D&D Multiverse, and also the other worlds of past and present TSR designers. E.g. John Eric Holmes' "World of Peril."
  • Release an Atlas of the D&D Multiverse which shows a world map for all of the existing D&D Worlds...even if they didn't have a full planetary map before! And which shows the official placement of all existing modules, D&D Fiction, and D&D video- and board-games.
  • Reduce the cost of the Classic PDFs - and offer cheap bundles/subscriptions which literally include everything ever written for each D&D World. And get it all set up for print-on-demand.
  • Get print-on-demand fully rolling for DMs Guild fan-writings.

If, for 6E, WotC adopted PF2 in whole cloth, that would save WotC a bunch of R&D money. They'd basically be using Paizo as their R&D department, for free. And so WotC would just use the OGL to reprint the PF core books, but with D&D slapped on the cover. (And D&D-specifics added: Tiefling, Dragonborn, Warlock, references to Toril, Krynn, etc.). Man, think of the massive 6E+PF2 "player network"! Talk about an "end of edition wars"...if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em. I mean, c'mon...even if PF2 doesn't sell as well as D&D5E (due to Hasbro's marketing reach), from a sheer design- and play-standpoint, PF2 is gonna probably be a well-honed iteration of D&D. A worthy 6E. Laid in WotC's lap...for free! From a sheer business standpoint, it's as if Ford or Tesla designed a great "next generation" car and handed the designs over to GM to use for free.

That way, WotC can just focus on writing its high-end hardcover adventures and D&D-branded stuff, and mostly get out of the R&D business...just leave it to Paizo. :-D
***
Another "perfect D&D" feature would be for the 6E core rules to be available in multiple "edition themes." Each "theme" matches the graphic of various previous editions of D&D. What I mean is, beside the mass-market retail version of the PHB, DMG, and MM, you also (or instead) order special versions of those books which are formatted (aesthetically) to look exactly like previous editions. The text and rules content would be the same - 6E. But the artwork, font, layout, and paper would exactly mimic a previous edition. So there'd be:


  • 6E OD&D Edition Theme. The PHB, DMG, and MM are printed as (very fat) stapled manila booklets. In a wood-grain boxed set. Bring back the original "very old school" artists, if they're still alive. Or reusing art from the existing OD&D booklets where appropriate. Or possibly tap new artists who very closely mimic the original style.
  • 6E BD&D Holmes Edition Theme
  • 6E B/X Edition Theme
  • 6E AD&D1e Sutherland Edition Theme
  • 6E AD&D1e Easley Edition Theme
  • 6E BECMI Theme. Red Box. With the Larry Elmore dragon cover. Or a new painting by Elmore.
  • 6E AD&D2E Theme
  • 6E AD&D2.5E Skills & Powers Theme. With black covers and red AD&D logo.
  • 6E RC D&D Theme. Uses the font style of the Rules Cyclopedia, Black Box, and Challenger D&D series.
  • 6E D&D3E Theme. With a new jewel and gear cover.
  • 6E D&D4E Theme
  • 6E D&D5E Theme

***
And, open up all rules editions (and worlds) of D&D to DMs Guild. So that we could publish, say, AD&D1E Dragonlance modules...not just 5E. I mean, it's all D&D...as long as it's clearly labeled as to what ruleset it's using. And a sale is a sale....Hasbro still gets a cut of it.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
. If you want to play the ranger that hates orcs in a party with a half-orc, we work out how we want to approach it before play starts. Maybe they want the tension to exist in-game to further their narratives, or maybe one of them changes their concept.
Worst case, what could happen in play if they couldn't reach some accommodation as players?

Obviously, the characters would try to kill eachother.

What's the worst "I don't like being told what my character thinks" is going to lead to? He declines the temps from Inspiring Leader, the Healing from a PDK, or Inspiration (Bardic or otherwise). He's mainly hurting himself, possibly under-contributing, but not out-of-character for a certain sort of loner archetype you do see in genre.
 
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