D&D General The perfect D&D edition (according to ENWORLD)

Zardnaar

Legend
Nod, I did say each iteration was more generous, the level of "bribery" implicit in offering CoDzilla was arguably the peak.

It wasn't as explicit perhaps nor as interesting. To break the 3E cleric you needed splat book support.

I think the specialty priest of Mystra could cast 23/24 spheres through to level 6. It didn't really break the game as they didn't get more spell slots, and the problem spells of 3.X didn't exist. That specialty priest is often held up on of the more broken ones (it's not).

When we play 2E I use the spell lists from Spells and Magic for the spheres. If it was PHB only maybe a cleric, more likely a Druid (it's more interesting, not really more powerful) but I wouldn't play the nerfed CPH cleric (Druid yes unless they nerfed that).

Played a few clerics in 5E lol. Normally I just take the healer feat spell slots are to precious and clerics kinda suck at healing outside the life domain.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
It wasn't as explicit perhaps nor as interesting. To break the 3E cleric you needed splat book support.
The whole point of the original CoDzilla rant was that those classes were broketastic from the PH1, on.

But, I agree, Tier 1 OP though it may have been, the 3.x Cleric with Domains was less interesting & varied than the 2e Priest with Spheres.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
The whole point of the original CoDzilla rant was that those classes were broketastic from the PH1, on.

But, I agree, Tier 1 OP though it may have been, the 3.x Cleric with Domains was less interesting & varied than the 2e Priest with Spheres.

To break the 3E cleric you really needed persistent spell feat and/or splat book PrCs. It might be slightly OP but it wasn't broken PHB only. Maybe at the highest levels but I'm talking more about real games.

3.0 Druid natural spell feat was also splat book. 3.5 added it to core and spontaneous summoning.
 

Aldarc

Legend
So what are the implications then going forward for what a "perfect edition" of D&D would entail for the cleric, niche protection, and healing?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
So what are the implications then going forward for what a "perfect edition" of D&D would entail for the cleric, niche protection, and healing?
Well, looking back at the OP:
balance vs. niche protection: Each class will be specialized and fit a role at core. A fighter does things completely different than a wizard, and at times the fighter will outshine the wizard, and other times the wizard outshines the rogue, etc. However, over the course of a typical adventure, each class will have an opportunity to shine and be balanced with the other classes. D&D has always been a team sport. Every encounter doesn't have to be balanced, but you shouldn't have to wait levels to balance things out either (like magic users in 1e).

* class list: in addition to the core classes we all know (pretty much all the ones in the 5e PHB), also include a warlord and mystic class as core. Some changes to how classes have been done include:
--ranger: core ranger class is magic free.
--sorcerer: solely uses a spell point system instead of spell slot system.
--wizards and clerics have specialized schools.
It sounds like a bit of a murky compromise, balance v niche protection. There'll be some niche protection in that each class must do things differently, and put in variable performance that'll theoretically balance out over the course of an adventure (which is more ambitious than a campaign, certainly). "Spotlight balance," a zero-sum game in which playtime is divided among the players based on the situation matching their character's specialty (and means of delivering on that specialty).

Healing can hardly be niche-protected for the Cleric with the Druid, Bard, Paladin & Warlord all in the game. I suppose you could make them heal differently: Clerics with Cure Wounds spells, Paladins with Lay on Hands, Warlords with inspiration, Bards with Song of Rest, Druids with something like 3e Vigor, perhaps.
Clerics would be further differentiated from Paladins by, er, not using swords s'much, I guess, from Warlords by casting all kinds of spells, from Bards & Druids by turning undead...

...yeah, all sounds pretty plausible, conventional even.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
To break the 3E cleric you really needed persistent spell feat and/or splat book PrCs. It might be slightly OP but it wasn't broken PHB only. Maybe at the highest levels but I'm talking more about real games.

3.0 Druid natural spell feat was also splat book. 3.5 added it to core and spontaneous summoning.
Depends on level of system mastery. I saw Clerics broken in official-only 3e pretty early on, long before 3.5, but it took a fair bit of system mastery (and robotic heartlessness) to accomplish.

With the splats, the level of mastery required to break 'em is much lower; as in not far from zero.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
So what are the implications then going forward for what a "perfect edition" of D&D would entail for the cleric, niche protection, and healing?

Probably more spell slots, more efficient healing spells and tweaking buff spells so there's more than bless and spiritual guardians being used.

Right now they have lost the healing much thing to Druids (life clerics might be an exception) and you have things like Celestial Warlock and that healer Druid who are better at bonus action brevival as the in effect get 4 free healing words built in. And that new healing spirit spell is also absurd compared with anything clerics get or even a level 9 Paladin.

Clerics also kind if suck at melee now and MAD us also an issue vwhen you can just beca light cleric which also makes abbtetter blaster than most of the wizards and sorcerers especially at low levels.
 
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