D&D 5E Powergamer Cleric= Variant Human?

Zardnaar said:

Don't get me wrong I'll happily use Spiritual Weapon, but below level 7 or 8 it's a good way to burn spell slots.
If you're doing 5MWD that's great.

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Even at level 6 you can use spiritual weapon and spirit guardians both in 3 fights per day. Spells that last the entire encounter are very efficient.

More importantly though, I'm not even asking you to consider doing this every fight, just in the extremely hard fights where it's really going to matter.

I assume you're playing from level 1, probably won't make it past 10. That whole 90% of games don't go past that.

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But that doesn't stop the criticism that when someone points out something better than yours at low level that you immediately reference a higher level and when someone points out something better than you at higher level that you immediately reference a lower level.

That's called goal post shifting and it's quite frustrating when to be in a discussion where that constantly happens.

If you need another asi to bump con from 13 to 14 probably via resilient con that's one less asi spent to buff strength.

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Just to make it clear - you are only looking at standard array. That's a fascinating restriction but whatever...

You previously agreed that it's more optimized at level 4 to take resilient con or warcaster. A build with 13 con is a great candidate for resilient con over warcaster. Just assume that is taken at level 4 instead of warcaster.

This puts both the heavy armor master cleric and yours with shileleagh in the same 16 main attack stat and con fix feat boat. The difference is that my feat choice has actually mattered for levels 1+. On your build, you literally get very limited benefit from until level 8 and even at that point the benefit isn't really much more than my non-shileleagh cleric. I mean we don't even have a +1 mod advantage in attack stat till level 8.

My build will have 18 or 20 wisdom maybe warcaster feat. At best you have 18 strength and 16 wisdom.

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It takes level 8 for your build to obtain 18 wisdom. My builds will have 18 str / 16 wis or 18 wis / 16 str.

In the tier we are talking about you are realistically only ahead on either attacks or spells by +1 and that's only once you near the end of your expected leveling curve. My build has the better early game feat with Heavy Armor Master. Your build doesn't really benefit from it's feat choice till level 8...

Paul Farquhar said:

Optional rules is optional. And even the optional rules have nothing on field of vision.



The rules assume you can turn your head! It says "can" see - i.e. it is possible for you to see the target. It doesn't say "must be looking at" at the instant the spell is released. Otherwise most spells and all ranged weapons would be limited to a 120 degree arc - assuming human, other races could well have different fields of vision. Then you have the complications of helmets, rear view mirrors attached to armour, etc.

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That optional rule only gives precision to something that already exists as indicated per the description. 5e has many common sense applications without explicit rules and this one is no difference. Based on the argument you are giving bears don't crap in the woods because there's no rules for defecation and this is the last generation of all races because there's no rules for reproduction. The list of what doesn't have a rule but would be used regardless would be huge. Turning your head might be possible but that loses line of sight away from the direction turned.

Not seeing behind the character is a basic anatomy question and no different from other basic anatomical functions with no rules. I think you're trying to stretch rules lawyering way beyond common sense there, lol.

Ashrym said:

Not seeing behind the character is a basic anatomy question

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I can see behind perfectly well. It's called turning, which is both common sense and not forbidden by the rules.

And bears clearly don't crap in the woods, since there are no bears in the woods in this country. Which is plain old common sense, as Judge Oliphant would say.

Zardnaar said:

Don't get me wrong I'll happily use Spiritual Weapon, but below level 7 or 8 it's a good way to burn spell slots.
If you're doing 5MWD that's great.

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Zardnaar said:

I assume you're playing from level 1, probably won't make it past 10. That whole 90% of games don't go past that.

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Zardnaar said:

I probably wouldn't bother with clerics with potent spelkcast arcane one being an exception.

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Zardnaar said:

If you need another asi to bump con from 13 to 14 probably via resilient con that's one less asi spent to buff strength.

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Zardnaar said:

My build will have 18 or 20 wisdom maybe warcaster feat. At best you have 18 strength and 16 wisdom.

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Your argument for clerics in general has 18 WIS at best after taking arcane initiate and war caster. At best I would have gone with point buy had 20 STR, 16 WIS, and 16 CON. With point spread I would still have the matching 18 STR and 16 WIS by going HAM.

Paul Farquhar said:

I can see behind perfectly well. It's called turning, which is both common sense and not forbidden by the rules.

And bears clearly don't crap in the woods, since there are no bears in the woods in this country. Which is plain old common sense, as Judge Bullingam would say.

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Not to mention a round is 6 seconds and that’s plenty of time to see everything

It's funny, just last week I built a vuman cleric that took Magic Initiate (Druid), with shillelagh, magic stone, and goodberry. But it was for a very specific scenario. Outside that, I probably wouldn't have done it.

The scenario was a one-shot at level 2, where I had no idea what the rest of the table would be playing. I was making a blasty light cleric, so medium armor, and some expectation of getting close in (I'd be relatively tanky with 18 AC and warding flare, plus I'd have spells and channel divinity that are based on being up in things). Stat priorities (after racial bonuses) were 16 WIS, 14 DEX, and preferably 16 CON. Using point buy that means I only have two points leftover, which I put into CHA.

As the cleric, I was going to be expected to be able to heal, but I didn't want to use my precious three spell slots for that, so goodberry was a perfect way to be able to do some flexible healing (I have Marvin Gaye in my head now) while keeping my spell slots free for offensive use.

I wanted to take Guidance and Thaumaturgy for sure, so that left only one offensive cantrip option. Since I didn't have martial weapon proficiency, my best shield-compatible attack options would be toll the dead or a dagger. Toll the dead is great, but it has some downsides: some creatures are resistant or immune to its damage type (and often those also resist nonmagical weapons), plus its damage is swingy, and at level 2 where you're facing a lot of creatures that can be killed in one decent attack, you'd rather be doing damage that is more likely to kill a goblin in one hit. Plus, if you have advantage or a bonus to-hit (b/c as a light cleric, maybe you cast faerie fire or bless), you'd rather be making attack rolls.

Shillelagh gives 1d8+3 (average 7.5) magical bludgeoning in melee, and magic stone gives 1d6+3 (average 6.5) magical bludgeoning at range. Using the industry standard PKGOH metric (Probability-to-Kill-a-Goblin-in-One-Hit), they score 0.57 and 0.50 respectively, compared to a dagger's 0 (at least with my +2 DEX) and toll the dead's 0.42. Plus unlike toll the dead, they benefit from bless and from advantage.

So in that specific context (most importantly, with very few spell slots, no bonus action competition, and no concern about what would happen at higher levels) it was a good option. Not necessarily the obvious best option (war caster would still be strong, as would swapping CON and DEX and taking Medium Armor Master -- the latter particularly if I might be the only party member with disadvantage to stealth), but I felt like it gave me the most room to play the character the way I was envisioning.

FrogReaver said:

Not to mention a round is 6 seconds and that’s plenty of time to see everything

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Sure, turn your head to the right. You stop seeing thing in the left field of vision as you gain things in the right. There are also many things not forbidden by the rules that clearly cannot be done. Just because an optional rule to give precision to facing rules during combat exists doesn't mean facing didn't exist before adding that level of precision. That's why the DM determines common sense. Plus, the cleric is not casting and lining up for those entire 6 seconds, just that one action during the round.

And having no bears where someone lives doesn't prevent them from crapping in the woods, it only stops the bears from crapping in the woods where the bears don't exist. Of course, replace that with humans defecating anywhere and it's still valid.

Ashrym said:

Sure, turn your head to the right. You stop seeing thing in the left field of vision as you gain things in the right.

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Sure, if you insist that all the targets must be visible at the same time (which the spell doesn't say), then it becomes a cone (as some gaze attacks are, like the beholders anti-magic ray, and the Catoblepas death gaze).

Word of Radiance is not a cone spell, because:

a) The description does not say it is a cone;

and b) the spell is in most respects similar to Thunderclap and Sword Burst, which are 5' radius pbaoes.

Paul Farquhar said:

Sure, if you insist that all the targets must be visible at the same time (which the spell doesn't say), then it becomes a cone (as some gaze attacks are, like the beholders anti-magic ray, and the Catoblepas death gaze).

Word of Radiance is not a cone spell, because:

a) The description does not say it is a cone;

and b) the spell is in most respects similar to Thunderclap and Sword Burst, which are 5' radius pbaoes.

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Yep. The RAI is clear on this one. The RAW he can at least make the argument he's attempting, but it's not RAI.

Ashrym said:

Sure, turn your head to the right. You stop seeing thing in the left field of vision as you gain things in the right. There are also many things not forbidden by the rules that clearly cannot be done.

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Sure, but the argument is that turns and actions take time. Be that 6 seconds or 1 second etc. The argument isn't that you are seeing left and right simultaneously but rather that in whatever time span a round or turn or action covers that you are able to see everything within that time span. See the difference?

Just because an optional rule to give precision to facing rules during combat exists doesn't mean facing didn't exist before adding that level of precision.

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Maybe, but that optional rule coupled with the fact that actions and turns are time spans and not instants makes for a persuasive case that seeing a creature isn't limited to the ones that you can see at some particular instant on your turn.

That's why the DM determines common sense. Plus, the cleric is not casting and lining up for those entire 6 seconds, just that one action during the round.

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Actions aren't instantaneous either. They have a timespan. Be it 1 second or 5 seconds. As long as we aren't dealing with an instantaneous moment (or near so) then there is time to turn your head while performing that action.

And having no bears where someone lives doesn't prevent them from crapping in the woods, it only stops the bears from crapping in the woods where the bears don't exist. Of course, replace that with humans defecating anywhere and it's still valid.

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Was this a failed attempt at humor?