D&D 5E Consensus about two-weapon fighting?

Remathilis · Jul 10, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Reason being is

Greatsword = 1 attack at 2d6+Stat
Longsword + Shortsword = 2 attacks at 1d8+ Stat/ 1d6

TWF deals greater DPR than the Greatsword guy. 2 attacks instead of one, and combined damage of 1d8+1d6+stat.

'Light weapon required in the offhand only' might work as default, but only if you imposed disadvantage on the off hand weapon attack, unless the primary weapon is also light..

So?

A d8 longsword (the best 1h weapon damage you can get) averages 1 pt of damage more per round (2 max) over a shortsword/shortsword combo, assuming you hit both times. Caeteris paribus, A dual-wielder would get an extra point of damage in exchange for the opportunity to use his bonus action and potentially miss one of his attacks and due less dpr than if he'd had hit just once with a 2h weapon.

Maxperson · Jul 10, 2019

Yaarel said:
Is there any consensus about how to fix two-weapon fighting?

Considering that on an internet forum you probably can't get a consensus on what consensus means, I doubt it.

Zardnaar · Jul 10, 2019

FrogReaver said:
View attachment 107466
*Assuming 3x Action Surges per day

That chart doesn't really do the fighter many favors.

1. It's level 11, big pick up for fighter. What does level 5 to 10 look like.

2. It's the Battlemaster, the most front loaded overall best fighter until level 15 or so.

It's a marginal increase in damage at a level a lot of games won't make it to and the Paladin is still better overall because if everything else it's does.

The one thing a fighter can crush a Paladin at us sharpshooter plus cbe combo, the extra feat is useful and paladin's don't get the archery style.

Anyway the big problem is certain feats. Just find some 3pp feat that buffs twf. It's what I did cost $1.

Flamestrike · Jul 10, 2019

Remathilis said:
So?

A d8 longsword (the best 1h weapon damage you can get) averages 1 pt of damage more per round (2 max) over a shortsword/shortsword combo, assuming you hit both times. Caeteris paribus, A dual-wielder would get an extra point of damage in exchange for the opportunity to use his bonus action and potentially miss one of his attacks and due less dpr than if he'd had hit just once with a 2h weapon.

2 attacks at [1d6/ 1d6+stat] is better than 1 attack at [2d6+stat]. It's your chances of 2 coin tosses coming up at least one head instead of one; you're a better chance of dealing damage every round over the guy with a single attack, and your DPR is the same.

Buffing the main hand to 1d8 means you deal (1d8+1d6+Stat) instead of a greatswords (2d6+stat). Your DPR is higher (presuming no feat investment) AND you're a better chance of dealing damage each round.

Bonus sources of damage (Hex, Hunters mark, Smite, Sup dice, Rage etc) make the TWF even more superior.

Gladius Legis · Jul 10, 2019

Flamestrike said:
2 attacks at [1d6/ 1d6+stat] is better than 1 attack at [2d6+stat]. It's your chances of 2 coin tosses coming up at least one head instead of one; you're a better chance of dealing damage every round over the guy with a single attack, and your DPR is the same.

Buffing the main hand to 1d8 means you deal (1d8+1d6+Stat) instead of a greatswords (2d6+stat). Your DPR is higher (presuming no feat investment) AND you're a better chance of dealing damage each round.

All that goes out the window once you get Extra Attack. Which accounts for 80% of a fighting class' level progression.

Greatsword becomes 4d6 + 2xstat. Which is more than 2d8 + 1d6 + 2xstat.

So, bumping the main hand to 1d8 wouldn't throw balance off at all, really. It'd only make dual-wielding slightly stronger (as in, 1 measly point) from Lv. 1-4, which, again, is only 20% of character progression as well as the levels that go by quickest.

Bonus sources of damage (Hex, Hunters mark, Smite, Sup dice, Rage etc) make the TWF even more superior.

Tagging an enemy with Hex or Hunter's Mark uses up the same bonus action you'd need to dual-wield in the first place. Making for at least one round in the battle you aren't getting the off-hand attack.

Rage is activated as a bonus action, again making for at least one round in the battle you aren't getting an off-hand attack.

Paladins don't get Two-Weapon Fighting Style as one of their Fighting Style options. That alone is a mitigating factor for the Lv. 5-10 range.

Superiority Dice are a finite resource that are going to get used up between short rests regardless.

The off-hand attack is not multiplied by an Action Surge because it's not part of your action. Again, advantage to the greatsword.

Conclusion: Dual-wielding is NOT superior. Not even if you bumped the main hand to 1d8.

Flamestrike · Jul 10, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
All that goes out the window once you get Extra Attack. Which accounts for 80% of a fighting class' level progression.

Greatsword becomes 4d6 + 2xstat. Which is more than 2d8 + 1d6 + 2xstat.

Agreed, but by that time all classes with extra attack as a class feature (or thirsting blade) have [+ damage] riders on attacks (Smite, Rage, Sup dice, Hunters mark, Hex, Eldritch smite, Divine Favor) or like having multiple attacks to land sneak attack in the case of rogues (who dont get extra attack), which picks up the slack.

So, bumping the main hand to 1d8 wouldn't throw balance off at all, really. It'd only make dual-wielding slightly stronger (as in, 1 measly point) from Lv. 1-4, which, again, is only 20% of character progression as well as the levels that go by quickest.

It doesnt throw balance off, but it makes TWF mechanically superior to Great Weapon fighting (and that's before you factor in Hunters mark and similar riders) at least until level 5.

It gets worse when fighting style investments are added in. A 1st level TWF fighter deals 1d8+Stat and 1d6+Stat compared to a GWF guy dealing 2d6+Stat (re-roll 1 and 2).

The TWF guy deals more damage, and has the better DPR spread (dealing damage more often).

Tagging an enemy with Hex or Hunter's Mark uses up the same bonus action you'd need to dual-wield in the first place. Making for at least one round in the battle you aren't getting the off-hand attack.

Made up for in rounds 2+.

The DPR drop off for shifting Hunter Mark/ Hex (lose 1 attack that round) more than makes up for itself from the 3rd round onwards.

Remember - in 5E monsters are big bags o HP. Unless you're dealing with a Horde of Mooks, it's always better shifting Hex/ Hunters mark on the Prime target than not.

Conclusion: Dual-wielding is NOT superior. Not even if you bumped the main hand to 1d8.

Your conclusion is flawed.

In your rules, Dual Wielding is superior to every other fighting style (till level 5) by every measure, then from 5th level onwards, it's only superior in certain situations (Nova strikes spamming smites or sup dice, when a target is already tagged with Hex/ Hunters mark, when hit chance is more important than outright damage etc).

A more niche solution (and Im aware it's a feat tax) is to simply include a 'Superior TWF' feat (requires the extra attack class feature, dual weilder feat and TWF style).

Benefit:

- When you fight with two weapons, you may make an extra melee weapon attack with a weapon you hold in the off hand as art of the same bonus action.
- When you make an attack of opportunity and you wield a melee weapon in each hand, you may attack the same target once with each weapon you hold as part of the same reaction.
- You gain +1 to Strength or Dex to a max score of 20

Gladius Legis · Jul 10, 2019

Flamestrike said:
It gets worse when fighting style investments are added in. A 1st level TWF fighter deals 1d8+Stat and 1d6+Stat compared to a GWF guy dealing 2d6+Stat (re-roll 1 and 2).

1d6 + Stat and 1d6 + Stat is already better than GWF's 2d6r1&2 + Stat from Lv. 1-4. I fail to see how 1 extra point of damage in the former case makes it that much more egregious. Again, for only Lv. 1-4, 20% of level progression, and the levels that go by quickest.

And then at Lv. 5, at STR 18:
GWF: 4d6r1&2 + 8 = 24.67
TWF (w/d8 main hand): 2d8 + 1d6 + 12 = 24.5

Lv. 5+, even with a 1d8 main hand AND the TWF Fighting Style, GWF is STILL more damaging (though just barely now).

Made up for in rounds 2+.

The DPR drop off for shifting Hunter Mark/ Hex (lose 1 attack that round) more than makes up for itself from the 3rd round onwards.

This is wrong.

Greatsword + Hunter's Mark, 3 rounds, STR 18, Extra Attack:
3*(6d6+8) = 87

1d8 main weapon + 1d6 off weapon, 3 rounds, Hunter's Mark tag round 1, dual-wielding 2 and 3, STR 18, Extra Attack:
(2d8+2d6+8) + 2*(2d8+4d6+8) = 86

Even after three rounds, the greatsword is a point ahead of the dual-wielder with a d8 main. The dual-wielder pulls ahead in Round 4, which is the last round of many combats, likely mopping up.

Your conclusion is flawed.

The math says otherwise after Lv. 5, i.e. 80% of character progression.

In your rules, Dual Wielding is superior to every other fighting style (till level 5) by every measure, then from 5th level onwards, it's only superior in certain situations (Nova strikes spamming smites or sup dice, when a target is already tagged with Hex/ Hunters mark, when hit chance is more important than outright damage etc).

Which is the case whether the main hand is a d6 or a d8 weapon. So, again, I fail to see the harm in allowing d8 mainhand weapons for dual-wielding.

Remathilis · Jul 10, 2019

Flamestrike said:
2 attacks at [1d6/ 1d6+stat] is better than 1 attack at [2d6+stat]. It's your chances of 2 coin tosses coming up at least one head instead of one; you're a better chance of dealing damage every round over the guy with a single attack, and your DPR is the same.

Buffing the main hand to 1d8 means you deal (1d8+1d6+Stat) instead of a greatswords (2d6+stat). Your DPR is higher (presuming no feat investment) AND you're a better chance of dealing damage each round.

Bonus sources of damage (Hex, Hunters mark, Smite, Sup dice, Rage etc) make the TWF even more superior.

You also end up with rounds where you hit your primary weapon and you miss your off-hand attack and do less damage then if you hit using a greatsword. So sometimes you get a little damage when you would have got none, but sometimes you get less than you would have if only needed to hit once. That is the price you pay.

Of course, the primary function of dual wielding is to give an extra shot of delivering rider dice. I don't have a problem with that, you are sacrificing a bonus action to do so. But if you're not, rule those riders (sa, smite hex, hunters mark) don't apply to off hand attacks. You could probably safely remove the bonus action requirement after that. Now, you're just gambling potential misses against chances to crit.

Flamestrike · Jul 10, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
Gladius Legis said:

1d6 + Stat and 1d6 + Stat is already better than GWF's 2d6r1&2 + Stat from Lv. 1-4. I fail to see how 1 extra point of damage in the former case makes it that much more egregious. Again, for only Lv. 1-4, 20% of level progression, and the levels that go by quickest.

Click to expand...

Exactly. 2WF is already good at low (1-4) levels. Your proposed 'fix' doesnt fix this; it just makes it even better at those low levels.

And then at Lv. 5, at STR 18:
GWF: 4d6r1&2 + 8 = 24.67
TWF (w/d8 main hand): 2d8 + 1d6 + 12 = 24.5

Click to expand...

Your 2WF gets 3 attacks per round to your GWF's 2. Meaning he deals more reliable (if slightly less) damage.

So there is a trade off elsewhere.

Greatsword + Hunter's Mark, 3 rounds, STR 18, Extra Attack:
3*(6d6+8) = 87

1d8 main weapon + 1d6 off weapon, 3 rounds, Hunter's Mark tag round 1, dual-wielding 2 and 3, STR 18, Extra Attack:
(2d8+2d6+8) + 2*(2d8+4d6+8) = 86

Click to expand...

Hunters mark (2 attacks per round) 3 rounds = 12d6 + (Str x 6) + 6d6 damage = 87 average damage - more with GWS - roughly 95 damage.
TWF+ Hunters mark and d6 damage weapons = 8d6 + (Str x 8) + 8d6 damage = 88 damage (and you have a higher chance of dealing damage due to more attacks meaning more reliable damage, and more chances to crit.

Even with d6 weapons, with hunters mark you're at least on par at round 3, and pull further ahead each round there-after.

Which is the case whether the main hand is a d6 or a d8 weapon. So, again, I fail to see the harm in allowing d8 mainhand weapons for dual-wielding.

Click to expand...

The harm is you're compounding the problem (2WF becomes clearly mathematically superior at levels 1-4) without fixing the real issue (at mid to high levels, and with feat support, TWF drops off).

You dont need to buff 2WF at low levels. It needs a buff from around 11th level onwards.

Gladius Legis · Jul 10, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Hunters mark (2 attacks per round) 3 rounds = 12d6 + (Str x 6) + 6d6 damage = 87 average damage - more with GWS - roughly 95 damage.
TWF+ Hunters mark and d6 damage weapons = 8d6 + (Str x 8) + 8d6 damage = 88 damage (and you have a higher chance of dealing damage due to more attacks meaning more reliable damage, and more chances to crit.

Even with d6 weapons, with hunters mark you're at least on par at round 3, and pull further ahead each round there-after.

95 is not on par with 88, dude. You cite math that directly disproves your point and try to spin that it proves you right. That's some mental gymnastics.

The harm is you're compounding the problem (2WF becomes clearly mathematically superior at levels 1-4) without fixing the real issue (at mid to high levels, and with feat support, TWF drops off).

One. Stinking. Point. At. The. Lowest. 20%. Of. Levels.

What do you have against one stinking point at the levels that go by the quickest?

I'm not even trying to fix a mathematical balance. I just want my character to use rapier/dagger or longsword/shortsword, TWO REAL-WORLD FIGHTING STYLES, without having to take a feat (i.e. OPTIONAL RULE) for it. Which for whatever reason is making you rage hard.