Why Rules Lawyering Is a Negative Term

Fanaelialae said:

In my group I was given the joking title of "Rules Lawyer of Justice". This is because while I have rules lawyered on my behalf and others, just as often it was on the DM's behalf (including times that it went seriously against my own interests).

However, I recognize that in the end the DM's word is law. Admittedly, in my younger days somewhat less so.

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For many years I held a similar position. I had a reputation for coming up with the right rule, even if it was good for the DM and bad for the players. Eventually, the DM recognizing that I was being fair and impartial with what I came up with, flat out assigned me the role of "rules lawyer" for the group. Whenever a situation came up that he wasn't sure about, he'd call on me to get the answer while he moved on to something else.

Fanaelialae said:

I'm not sure that's the best example. The DM is free to invent any abilities they want for a monster, so I'd never challenge a DM on that basis.

I won't challenge a DM just because I disagree with a ruling, but I might if I consider that the ruling is unfair and is hurting the fun at the table. I don't try to twist the rules, but I will make the DM aware of the rules and even argue on the behalf of other players. If a rules call is ruining the fun at the table already, then IMO there's not much harm in taking the time to hash out the situation.

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But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about goblins using their bonus action, orcs getting to close in on enemies, a phase spider phasing in. Or maybe I thought it would be more cinematic to have the PCs see the bad guy slip through a door just ahead of them only to have the challenge of "How did he do that? Did he have a readied action? If he did, he can't lock the door behind him!" In reality, the bad guy had plenty of movement and an action; playing by the rules he moved/closed the door/locked it on his initiative. But having them see him getting away was more fun and also told them where he went.

Fanaelialae said:

In fact, I invite the same behavior when I am DMing, even though it goes against the common wisdom. A player who tries to twist the rules in their favor will find themselves shut down hard in my game. But if players have a serious issue with one of my rulings, we put the game on pause and hash it out. IME, it's lead to a table where players really only challenge my rulings when I've made a bad ruling. And I've learned the humility to admit when I make a bad ruling and retcon it.

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Once in a blue moon, I really, really, obviously screw up. Nobody's perfect. But if it's not life or death or a really, really important let's deal with it after the game. I'm always open to discussion, just not in game.

A lot of these things are minor, nit-picky things. It's not that I'm granting fire immunity to something that should only have fire resistance, it's that their questioning why the dire wolf the goblin is riding has advantage.

Fanaelialae said:

As another player pointed out, challenging a DM at the table can lead to issues, as some DMs will take it personally. IMO, it's actually a useful and important DMing skill to not take such challenges as personal attacks. It's a matter of hearing your players and recognizing when you've made a poor call that is pulling them out of their engagement with the game. It can definitely be an issue with a DM who hasn't learned those skills. At that point, it's definitely important for the rules guru/lawyer to be able to identify whether the issue is worth pursuing (is the mood already ruined by the call, such that challenging it can only make things better or leave them the same, or is the rest of the table willing to accept it such that you should just swallow your protest and move on).

At it's best it is co-DMing, but admittedly at it's worst it is backseat DMing. I'll grant that there is a peculiar sort of player who tries to rules lawyer in order to twist the rules and power game, but in my personal experience that's been a rarity at my table. Much more often it's been about calls the player disagrees with because they feel it is unfair or simply because the call makes what they were doing play out in an unexpected manner (such as a player who has expertise in Acrobatics wanting to run across a tightrope but the DM calling for an Athletics check).

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This has nothing to do with humility or accepting that I do not know all the rules, or never make mistakes. It's about interrupting the flow of the game for the DM who is juggling the scene, the monster's actions, what's going to happen because the party just did X when you were certain they were going to do Y. It's about interrupting a story being built by the entire group for a rules discussion and disrupting the flow of the game.

Maxperson said:

For many years I held a similar position. I had a reputation for coming up with the right rule, even if it was good for the DM and bad for the players. Eventually, the DM recognizing that I was being fair and impartial with what I came up with, flat out assigned me the role of "rules lawyer" for the group. Whenever a situation came up that he wasn't sure about, he'd call on me to get the answer while he moved on to something else.

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I have absolutely no problem calling for advice as a DM if I don't remember a rule. If I seem confused or unsure, mumbling "how do I do" to myself (well mumbling to myself more than normal) that's all good.

But if it's minor, if it's just "how did that goblin have a chance to make a stealth check after he fired an arrow at me", then we can discuss it later. If I really implemented something wrong, I'll fix it in the future. This is also a question of frequency. Does it happen once every 5 or 10 game sessions? Not a big deal. Every session? Multiple times per session*? Then we have a problem.

EDIT
*Especially if I always double check the rule and haven't messed up or explain that the bad guy really moved/closed/locked the door on his initiative and you keep on interrupting "just to check".

Oofta said:

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about goblins using their bonus action, orcs getting to close in on enemies, a phase spider phasing in. Or maybe I thought it would be more cinematic to have the PCs see the bad guy slip through a door just ahead of them only to have the challenge of "How did he do that? Did he have a readied action? If he did, he can't lock the door behind him!" In reality, the bad guy had plenty of movement and an action; playing by the rules he moved/closed the door/locked it on his initiative. But having them see him getting away was more fun and also told them where he went.



Once in a blue moon, I really, really, obviously screw up. Nobody's perfect. But if it's not life or death or a really, really important let's deal with it after the game. I'm always open to discussion, just not in game.

A lot of these things are minor, nit-picky things. It's not that I'm granting fire immunity to something that should only have fire resistance, it's that their questioning why the dire wolf the goblin is riding has advantage.




This has nothing to do with humility or accepting that I do not know all the rules, or never make mistakes. It's about interrupting the flow of the game for the DM who is juggling the scene, the monster's actions, what's going to happen because the party just did X when you were certain they were going to do Y. It's about interrupting a story being built by the entire group for a rules discussion and disrupting the flow of the game.



I have absolutely no problem calling for advice as a DM if I don't remember a rule. If I seem confused or unsure, mumbling "how do I do" to myself (well mumbling to myself more than normal) that's all good.

But if it's minor, if it's just "how did that goblin have a chance to make a stealth check after he fired an arrow at me", then we can discuss it later. If I really implemented something wrong, I'll fix it in the future. This is also a question of frequency. Does it happen once every 5 or 10 game sessions? Not a big deal. Every session? Multiple times per session? Then we have a problem.

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Sure, if it's nitpicking, that is problematic rules lawyering. I addressed that in the post you responded to, in that a good rules guru/lawyer can differentiate between times when they might have ruled differently were they DMing, and times that the entire table has ceased to have fun due to a bad call and it needs to be addressed. The former case is, IMO, problematic rules lawyering whereas the latter is potentially beneficial (provided that the DM is open to "constructive criticism").

I wasn't saying that it was a matter of ego on your part. Just that I've encountered DMs for whom that was the case. They weren't simply annoyed at the interruption but clearly framed it as a personal attack.

Fanaelialae said:

Sure, if it's nitpicking, that is problematic rules lawyering. I addressed that in the post you responded to, in that a good rules guru/lawyer can differentiate between times when they might have ruled differently were they DMing, and times that the entire table has ceased to have fun due to a bad call and it needs to be addressed. The former case is, IMO, problematic rules lawyering whereas the latter is potentially beneficial (provided that the DM is open to "constructive criticism").

I wasn't saying that it was a matter of ego on your part. Just that I've encountered DMs for whom that was the case. They weren't simply annoyed at the interruption but clearly framed it as a personal attack.

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There are some bad DMs out there, I've run into my fair share. I'm sure we all have stories of bad DMs, but I also have empathy for the guy on the other side of the screen. I'm just trying to be sure I was clear; if it's really important and really obvious I'll raise an issue. Otherwise I'll just wait until after the game.

Oofta said:

I have absolutely no problem calling for advice as a DM if I don't remember a rule. If I seem confused or unsure, mumbling "how do I do" to myself (well mumbling to myself more than normal) that's all good.

But if it's minor, if it's just "how did that goblin have a chance to make a stealth check after he fired an arrow at me", then we can discuss it later. If I really implemented something wrong, I'll fix it in the future. This is also a question of frequency. Does it happen once every 5 or 10 game sessions? Not a big deal. Every session? Multiple times per session*? Then we have a problem.

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As a DM I don't mind someone saying, "Wait, he had an arrow in his leg. How did he stealth?" As a DM, I'm tracking so many things that sometimes I forget the arrow and a reminder is good. If I respond, "I'm aware." and they keep continuing, that's when the line has been crossed. Sometimes the goblin is wearing Boots of Stealth Anyway.

Maxperson said:

For many years I held a similar position. I had a reputation for coming up with the right rule, even if it was good for the DM and bad for the players. Eventually, the DM recognizing that I was being fair and impartial with what I came up with, flat out assigned me the role of "rules lawyer" for the group. Whenever a situation came up that he wasn't sure about, he'd call on me to get the answer while he moved on to something else.

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This is a truly horrifying thought.

Maxperson said:

As a DM I don't mind someone saying, "Wait, he had an arrow in his leg. How did he stealth?" As a DM, I'm tracking so many things that sometimes I forget the arrow and a reminder is good. If I respond, "I'm aware." and they keep continuing, that's when the line has been crossed. Sometimes the goblin is wearing Boots of Stealth Anyway.

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There is no rule in 5e that prevents stealth when legs are punctured by arrows.

;-)

Hussar said:

Deleted personal attack

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Since I know you wouldn't be attacking me personally here, I have to assume that for some reason you find being fair and impartial to be a horrifying thought. That seems really odd to me.

Edit: deleted a personal attack against me.

Sword of Spirit said:

There is no rule in 5e that prevents stealth when legs are punctured by arrows.

;-)

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Yeah, I thought of that when the example came up, but just went with it. The idea behind the example was sound, even if the example wasn't.

Maxperson said:

Since I know you wouldn't be attacking me personally here, I have to assume that for some reason you find being fair and impartial to be a horrifying thought. That seems really odd to me.

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Oh no. That was 100% personal based on the rules interpretations you’ve tried to argue in the past.