D&D 5E What spells should have had the ritual tag, but don't?

Yaarel

He Mage
Officially, those feats are wildly overvalued. By far. They’re garbage feats.

Mage Armor teaching AC 18 requires 20 Dex. By the level at which a character would have that, they can also have +1 Studded Leather, reaching the same AC, which only loses 1 AC while fighting beholders.

"+1 studded leather"

I prefer the design that keeps magic items out of the balance equations.

The +5 Dexterity happens automatically, because the benefits from investing in Dexterity fighting incentivize it.

Mage Armor = Plate Armor



So, no, Mage Armor isn’t equal to Plate.

Further, by the time a Dex character has a 20 Dex, the Strength guy probably has their Plate.

That is the point. When the Str character gains Plate Armor 18 AC, the Dex character would have Mage Armor with an equal 18 AC.

Mage Armor = Plate Armor



Lastly, you’re mixing comparisons ina way that obfuscates the truth.

If wearing medium armor requires two feats for you, you aren’t playing a class that can have Mage Armor without taking a specific subclass or a feat. Fighters, Clerics, Druids, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, all have medium armor. Everyone but wizards and sorcerers get at least light armor.

So, for half the classes, Mage Armor is a couple extra AC, at most. If they wanna be a Dex character.


That confirms the other point. "Mage Armor is a couple extra AC."

In other words, Mage Armor makes Dex fighting strictly better than Str fighting for "half the classes" that lack heavy armor proficiency.



For 4 other classes, it’s the same as a +1 to AC.

For Wizards, it’s 1 less spell slot used per day. For Sorcerers, it’s the ability to take a feat in order to burn 1 first level spell slot per day.

For warlocks, it saves them an Invocation.

Don't oversell it.

A spell that lasts for 8 hours, is effectively equivalent to ‘always on’. Virtually, the Wizard is swapping out a level 1 spell slot for armor proficiency.

At this point, the design might as well have made Mage Armor a class feature of the Wizard class.




In bounded accuracy, a feat that grants +2 attack rolls would be a huge deal. Notice, such a feat doesnt even exist in the Players Handbook.

Conversely, because of the exact same math, +2 AC is a big deal.

The design math is, roughly:

Light armor +2 AC → 12 AC
Medium armor +2 AC → 14 AC
Heavy armor +2 AC → 16 AC

Meanwhile Plate Armor 18 AC is pretend-balanced by high gp cost.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Yaarel

He Mage
Medium armor seems useful enough at low levels, but becomes strictly inferior at high levels, being outclassed by better heavy armor for Strength or light armor for Dexterity. For this reason, I think it is ok to lump medium and heavy armor together into the same feat.

The original design goal was to have Light Armor max out at AC 17, and Medium Armor max out at AC 17, and the only way to reach AC 18 was Heavy Armor via plate armor.

When one adds the +2 shield, Heavy Armor comes out to an even AC 20. A number, which the design intended for light and medium to be unable to reach.

Mage Armor can reach this AC 20, if with a shield, but a Wizard rarely uses a shield.



[edit]
 
Last edited:

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
There are many spells that can't be cast in combat or are irrelevant to combat. Any spell that takes a long time to cast, for instance.

Gee, my exact example I was attempting to find out if you meant several posts ago that you wouldn't clear up. Thank you for eventually answering the question.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
"+1 studded leather"

I prefer the design that keeps magic items out of the balance equations.

The +5 Dexterity happens automatically, because the benefits from investing in Dexterity fighting incentivize it.

Mage Armor = Plate Armor
No, that is false.

Firstly, the characters that can gain Mage Armor without taking a feat will have stats that are either more important than dex, or just as important.

Secondly, even if we imagine the sort of CharOp edge case that the game should never balance around, and assume a character with Mage Armor who got it from their class, but isn't putting anything on the same or higher priority level as dex, they won't have a 20 until level 4 at the earliest, and level 8 is much more likely.

So, what, they're 1 AC above Studded Leather. Scary.




That is the point. When the Str character gains Plate Armor 18 AC, the Dex character would have Mage Armor with an equal 18 AC.

Mage Armor = Plate Armor
Except most characters won't have a 20 Dex until noticeably later. The fact that two characters can both eventually reach the same AC does not mean that they are the same. for the erroneous statement, "mage armor=plate armor", to be true, it would have to provide 18 AC to any character who uses it, without having to dedicate 2 ASIs on top of a feat to get Mage Armor as a ritual. (classes that have mage armor and have ritual casting are going for heavy armor with extreme rarity, so the majority of characters who are actually relevant to a comparison between Mage Armor and Plate are pretty much Fighters. And melee dex fighters can get to that AC level without Mage Armor. Archers too, actually, if they take Defensive instead of Archery, but that's niche.


That confirms the other point. "Mage Armor is a couple extra AC."

In other words, Mage Armor makes Dex fighting strictly better than Str fighting for "half the classes" that lack heavy armor proficiency.

No, it makes it better for classes that lack medium and heavy armor, which it already is, and always will be. So, it doesn't change that dynamic at all. Your argument may as well be that the Dual Wielder feat is broken because that +1 to AC allows a Dex character to get the same AC as plate, thus making dex and dual weilding better for half the classes. Yet, no one I've ever seen in any forum considers that feat too strong, and most consider it not strong enough.

A spell that lasts for 8 hours, is effectively equivalent to ‘always on’. Virtually, the Wizard is swapping out a level 1 spell slot for armor proficiency.

At this point, the design might as well have made Mage Armor a class feature of the Wizard class.
This is the same issue and argument as Hunter's Mark and Hex and Eldritch Blast. I don't care. They didn't make them class features, they made them spells. It is what it is. Making it a ritual does a similar thing, which is fine, and also allows other gish type characters to look and feel right for the player.



In bounded accuracy, a feat that grants +2 attack rolls would be a huge deal. Notice, such a feat doesnt even exist in the Players Handbook.
The game isn't as reserved with AC boosts. Dual Wielder gives +1 AC. There are plenty of other sources of AC boosts. This is a molehill.

Conversely, because of the exact same math, +2 AC is a big deal.
if the designers agreed with you, there would be as few AC boosts as there are attack boosts.

The design math is, roughly:

Light armor +2 AC → 12 AC
Medium armor +2 AC → 14 AC
Heavy armor +2 AC → 16 AC

Meanwhile Plate Armor 18 AC is pretend-balanced by high gp cost.
18 AC is easy to get. Every heavy armor guy with a shield reaches it without plate, and surpasses it with. +1 armor is uncommon. The most common magic item type in the DMG.
5e isn't intended to be as tightly numerically balanced as you seem to think.

Medium armor seems useful enough at low levels, but becomes strictly inferior at high levels, being outclassed by better heavy armor for Strength or light armor for Dexterity. For this reason, I think it is ok to lump medium and heavy armor together into the same feat.
Better to combine medium armor proficiency and medium armor mastery into 1 feat, possibly still a half feat.

The original design goal was to have Light Armor max out at AC 17, and Medium Armor max out at AC 17, and the only way to reach AC 18 was Heavy Armor via plate armor.

When one adds the +2 shield, Heavy Armor comes out to an even AC 20. A number, which the design intended for light and medium to be unable to reach.

Mage Armor can reach this AC 20, if with a shield, but a Wizard rarely uses a shield.
So, the only characters who can get AC 20 with Mage Armor are the guys who are already, at most, 1 feat away from it? Seems pretty fair to me.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
[MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION]

To be clear, Mage Armor is balanced. AC 18 cannot break the game.

The problem is. D&D 5e depends on the math of bounded accuracy. It is necessary to stay sober and curb the intoxication temptation and habit of piling on endless bonus numbers.

AC 18 is the highest armor AC possible in D&D 5e.

Getting access to the highest AC possible is worth a half feat. Officially it is worth two half feats, and by allowing an unlimited Dex bonus on top of it, it is equivalent to three half feats. Requiring only one half feat to gain Mage Armor seems generous.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
A spell that lasts for 8 hours, is effectively equivalent to ‘always on’. Virtually, the Wizard is swapping out a level 1 spell slot for armor proficiency.

It's really, truly not "always on". It can be easily dispelled (it's so low level it's auto-dispelled by dispel magic). And it only lasts for 1/3 of the day. If somehow you are never getting challenges for 2/3rd of every day, I suspect your DM is going very easy on you. There are entire spell categories (of good spells) which are specifically just to manage 1/3 of the day to get a long rest in somewhat safety. Those spells just would not exist if it's expected there are no challenges for 2/3rd of the day.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
So, what, they're 1 AC above Studded Leather. Scary.

This isnt about being broken.

The issue is bounded accuracy.

An 18 is high, but within bounded accuracy, and is acceptable.

But piling on bonus numbers without considering the systemic impact is unwise.

The related issue is:

Dexterity Fighters are increasingly obsoleting Strength Fighters.

Mage Armor adds to this trend.

Dexterity Fighters already seem overrepresented at least in D&D Beyond statistics.



Every character build that depends on Dexterity maxes it out as soon as possible. So, Mage Armor is a bonus number sitting on top of this. It equals AC 18.

As mentioned earlier, the shield turns this AC 18 armor, into an AC 20.



No, it makes it better for classes that lack medium and heavy armor, which it already is, and always will be. So, it doesn't change that dynamic at all. Your argument may as well be that the Dual Wielder feat is broken because that +1 to AC allows a Dex character to get the same AC as plate, thus making dex and dual wielding better for half the classes.

You mention Dual Wielder, but the point makes less sense. The Dual Wielder as given up the ability to use a shield, thus is inferior to Plate Armor + Shield, and inferior to Mage Armor + Shield.



Anyway, if wanting to play to around with Mage Armor, it is necessary to analyze the entire D&D 5e design for armor.

I am open to rethinking the D&D 5e armor table and its gaming system. But this must be done comprehensively, while paying attention to Strength versus Dexterity, and while strictly avoiding number inflation.

The value of a +1 bonus to AC versus a +1 bonus to an attack roll, but also become more clearly quantified.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Regarding combat spells.

I define ‘combat’ effects as anything relating to:

• attack roll / dealing damage
• AC / healing

• mobility during combat (fly speed, haste, teleport, etc)
• immobility during combat (wall, hold, etc)

• detecting hostile creatures, traps (see invisibility, initiative, etc)
• stealth (concealment, invisibility, etc)

• gaining combat ally (conjure, summon, clone, simulacrum, undead, etc)
 

Yaarel

He Mage
It's really, truly not "always on". It can be easily dispelled (it's so low level it's auto-dispelled by dispel magic). And it only lasts for 1/3 of the day. If somehow you are never getting challenges for 2/3rd of every day, I suspect your DM is going very easy on you. There are entire spell categories (of good spells) which are specifically just to manage 1/3 of the day to get a long rest in somewhat safety. Those spells just would not exist if it's expected there are no challenges for 2/3rd of the day.

A person is only awake for sixteen hours each day. Mage Armor is half of this.

In our games, the number of combat encounters per day depends entirely on the narrative. A setting that has alot of social encounters or exploration might not have any combat.

In our games, combat works out to be about one to four combats per day.

The only time there are more combat encounters is when entering some kind of old school ‘dungeon crawl’ where the characters are literally going from room to room, with a separate encounter in each room, which seems rarely realistic.

Anyway, keeping combat to 8 hours and less enjoys verisimilitude.



If the armor is on for one encounter, then it is an encounter power. If for an other encounter after that, ok. And even a third encounter. But if by the fourth encounter the armor is still probably on, I treat it as if it is virtually a daily power for the purpose of assessing its worth compared to other powers. Close enough anyway.

For example, if a player already has Mage Armor, and wanted it always on, I would consider the improvement no more than a skill or two, if any.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
[MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION] you are focused on a couple things that I don’t care at all about, and never will.

If it isn’t about being broken or not, why spend so much time railing against it? I don’t care about protecting the relevance of strength fighters. People who want to play guys in heavy armor but don’t like Paladins will still play strength fighters. Character optimization doesn’t matter.

If it doesn’t make one character obscure or overshadow other characters, it isn’t a problem. All options don’t need to be numerically perfectly balanced.

I also don't care about this discussion of how many parts of a feat something is worth.

Mage Armor is worth what it’s worth to a given actual character. To a character that would otherwise use plate, it’s worthless. To a high Dex character, it is +1 AC.

To a wizard, Mage Armor as a ritual is 1-2 1st level spell slots saved.

To a Sorcerer, it’s only even that if they spend a feat on it. Many days, it will the same as getting a 1/day use of the spell from Magic Initiate.

For a Warlock, it’s a freed up Invocation.

For a character that takes ritual caster rather than Magic Initiate, it’s trading two cantrips for a second use of Mage Armor.

Any discussion that doesn’t involve what it actually means for the character taking it, isn’t a useful discussion.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top