D&D 5E What spells should have had the ritual tag, but don't?

doctorbadwolf · Jul 3, 2019

Yaarel said:
I agree. Light Armor + 1 AC = Mage Armor.

That flat +1 bonus to AC that also allows for full Dexterity, is worth 2 points, about the same as a Shield.

If someone already has Light Armor, then the +1 AC is worth 2 points. If someone is gaining both Light Armor and the +1 AC, then it is worth about 5 points.

In other words, Mage Armor is really worth about 5 points. More than 4.

So, a feat that gives Ability Score +1 and Mage Armor is an appealing feat, worth about 9 points, where a standard feat is 8 points.

No, you’re ignoring vital data.

There are only two classes that don’t have light armor or better, and both of them have Mage Armor already on their spell list.

So it’s always just a +1. The fact that it allows full Dex is irrelevant, because so does adding +1 onto some light armor.

Garthanos · Jul 3, 2019

I think mage armor on a mage ought to be based on Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma ... its only dex based when you cannot tweak it.

Yaarel · Jul 3, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
No, you’re ignoring vital data.

There are only two classes that don’t have light armor or better, and both of them have Mage Armor already on their spell list.

So it’s always just a +1. The fact that it allows full Dex is irrelevant, because so does adding +1 onto some light armor.

So, you are saying that having proficiency with Light Armor is a baseline that every character has. Even the classes that have the ‘flaw’ of lacking it have something comparable in its place.

In other words, proficiency with Light Armor = 0 points. It is free. It is already assumed into the math of the gaming system.

I probably accept that argument. But all the more reason to make Mage Armor an always-on class feature for the Wizard.

I get it, that you would accomplish the always-on, via making it a ritual.

However, so far, all of the rituals are ‘safe’ noncombat choices.

I am leaning toward allowing anyone to cast any ritual via the Arcana skill. Personally, I feel that if magic exists, then it is more ‘realistic’ for people to have casual exposure to it. Notice the Eberron-esque feel.

If so, I prefer no combat options to be available, and rituals to be for social and exploratory situations.

The difficulty would be high, maybe something like 20 + spell level to cast a ritual. With proficiency and decent ability, at least the lowest level rituals would be serviceable.

Yaarel · Jul 3, 2019

@doctorbadwolf

Assuming light armor is baseline. It is probably still worth a skill to gain proficiency with it. The Wizard class did not get it and, if it wants it, could reasonably swap something like a skill for it.

Note proficiency with one or more simple weapons is also a baseline. Together, light armor and one or more simple weapons, plus shield, total 4 points for basic self-defense − what typical people look like when they get drafted for a battle.

• 2 shield
• 1 light armor
• 2 Medium Armor (prereq light)
• 3 Heavy Armor (prereq medium)

• 2 flat +1 bonus to AC (full Dexterity)
• 3 Mage Armor (light +1)
• 4 ability score +1

WaterRabbit · Jul 3, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
So changing the target of the spell is somehow less difficult than changing duration? I'm not sure I follow your logic there, not when the stated goal was to disincline parties from going the all mage armor route for no cost via a ritual. I don't think the obvious answer there is remove the ability of the spell to affect someone else, nor is that solution one that necessarily transfers well to other spells that might suffer from a spam treatment as rituals. However, changing duration does transfer well as a mechanical concept to other rituals and it does so without changing the actual spell in question.

I think we're really talking about different things. I don't actually care about Mage Armor at all, it was just an example. I was suggesting ritual duration in the context of a vastly expanded field of ritual spells as a mechanism to prevent spam.

I get what you are saying, but increasing the duration for a number of rituals where they cannot be used frequently pushes them toward the useless category. I think Mage Armor is fine without the ritual tag, but I could also see it being a class feature where the caster renews it when they prepare their spells.

I don't see ritual spam in general as a problem -- cantrip spam is much more problematic to me.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 4, 2019

Yaarel said:
@doctorbadwolf

Assuming light armor is baseline. It is probably still worth a skill to gain proficiency with it. The Wizard class did not get it and, if it wants it, could reasonably swap something like a skill for it.

Note proficiency with one or more simple weapons is also a baseline. Together, light armor and one or more simple weapons, plus shield, total 4 points for basic self-defense − what typical people look like when they get drafted for a battle.

• 2 shield
• 1 light armor
• 2 Medium Armor (prereq light)
• 3 Heavy Armor (prereq medium)

• 2 flat +1 bonus to AC (full Dexterity)
• 3 Mage Armor (light +1)
• 4 ability score +1

I just don’t agree at all that it’s worth the same as a skill proficiency. Medium armor, maybe. Heavy Armor certainly. Light armor is not a value add for any character. Its like tool proficiency before Xanathar’s, except even those had utility in the hands of a DM whose goal is fun.

The ability to gain a +1 AC as a ten minute ritual, as one of a few rituals, or later paying the time and gold to scribe a new ritual, is simply in line with other ritual spells.

edit: also 20+ spell level is much too high a DC for even 1st level rituals to ever be worth planning on the use of for anyone that does not have expertise. Even 15+ would be restrictive, but at least low levels wouldn’t be in the range of things you only try when desperate.

Yaarel · Jul 4, 2019

Can Fighter Extra Attack cast a cantrip ‘Spell Attack’?

@doctorbadwolf

Maybe Arcana skill casts ritual at

DC 13 + *character level* of spell

character level = (spell level x2) − 1

Many noncombat cantrips make great rituals: Light, Shape Water, etcetera.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 4, 2019

Yaarel said:
Can Fighter Extra Attack cast a cantrip ‘Spell Attack’?

I think it should be able to.

I am guessing the official answer is no, but where is the precise wording?

Casting a cantrip is generally an Action, which means it can’t be combined with the Attack Action.

Eldritch Knights get to Attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip, at level 7

doctorbadwolf · Jul 4, 2019

Yaarel said:
@doctorbadwolf

Maybe Arcana skill casts ritual at

DC 13 + *character level* of spell

Many noncombat cantrips make great rituals: Light, Shape Water, etcetera.

One of the things I do with NPCs in Eberron games is allow them to cast certain cantrips as rituals.

Yaarel · Jul 4, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Casting a cantrip is generally an Action, which means it can’t be combined with the Attack Action.

Eldritch Knights get to Attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip, at level 7

Right, but is a spell description that says ‘make a spell attack’ considered an attack?

Note that the description of Extra Attack never mentions the need to use a weapon, and includes other kinds of attack such as ‘brawling with fists’.