Players choose what their PCs do . . .

generic · Jul 11, 2019

Umbran said:
Define, "role-play in perfect character".

I will assume a few things that I figure are solidly in-genre here for the point. The noble knight wants to be chaste. He also wants to protect the kingdom from whatever threatens it this week. So, the knight has a conflict of priorities - both of which are part of his character. The point here is to ask which is dominant, and have that be an interesting choice for the player.

If we already know what is the perfect choice for this character, then there's no point in asking the question.

Mind you, this still isn't a "challenge". We are not testing whether his chastity is "strong enough". We are simply asking the player to make a decision.

False premise looking for an argument.

I didn't think this would be as controversial as it became, all I'm saying is that I ask players why their characters have made these choices.

Guest 6801328 · Jul 11, 2019

lowkey13 said:
So, I don't actually disagree with you, but when I read what you wrote, I had the following thought-

when you appear to criticize someone for making "value judgments about the choices they do make," I have to contrast that with your approach.

I find it hard to square your criticism with the following description of escalating consequences. I mean ... how does one adjudicate "escalating consequences" without making value judgments? If you aren't being all judge-y judge-y about how a noble knight should act as a DM, how (or why?) should you be dishing out consequences?

Again, I happen to be of the mindset, "Spare the rod, spoil the player" myself, so it's not that I disagree with you. I mean, if God & Gygax didn't want consequences (so MANY consequences muahahahahahahahaha!), he wouldn't have invented Paladins, amirite?

I'm just not seeing the distinction you're making. Seems like judge-y turtles, all the way down.

Yeah, that's a fair point.

For me, the distinction is that one is based on the belief that the player is "wrong", while the other is more like designing encounters with monsters or traps or whatever, in that you (the GM) are establishing the realities in your game world, and then inviting the player to engage with it, to their profit or peril. Sure, you may have expectations or even desires that they make certain choices, but if they don't, that leads in ok/fun directions, too.

Guest 6801328 · Jul 11, 2019

Aebir-Toril said:
False premise looking for an argument.

I didn't think this would be as controversial as it became, all I'm saying is that I ask players why their characters have made these choices.

Ok, but why are you asking them?

(Unless we're talking about brand new players, and you're trying to get them to think like roleplayers...?)

generic · Jul 11, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
Ok, but why are you asking them?

(Unless we're talking about brand new players, and you're trying to get them to think like roleplayers...?)

Sometimes, I do DM for new players.

Otherwise, I ask why a player chooses for a character to do something.

Not because I think players shouldn't have control over their characters, but because I want, as a DM, to know why the noble knight would commit adultery, even if it's not his flaw.

I don't prevent players from doing things, I ask them why they're doing them.

generic · Jul 11, 2019

[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION], for me it's not about the justification of their actions, it's more about my curiosity as to their motivations.

Guest 6801328 · Jul 11, 2019

Aebir-Toril said:
Sometimes, I do DM for new players.

Otherwise, I ask why a player chooses for a character to do something.

Not because I think players shouldn't have control over their characters, but because I want, as a DM, to know why the noble knight would commit adultery, even if it's not his flaw.

I don't prevent players from doing things, I ask them why they're doing them.

Ok, then why do you want to know?

Maybe try to imagine this as a movie. A character you thought was a "good guy" does something surprising. Do you want text on the screen explaining the character's thoughts and motivations? Or do you think, "Oh! I wasn't expecting that! I wonder where this is going....?"

Guest 6801328 · Jul 11, 2019

Aebir-Toril said:
@Elfcrusher, for me it's not about the justification of their actions, it's more about my curiosity as to their motivations.

Overlapping posts there.

If it's because you want to be able to design future encounters to interact in interesting ways with the player's ideas for their character, then that I understand. But even then I, personally, would base it off of the actual actions, rather than asking explicitly.

generic · Jul 11, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
Overlapping posts there.

If it's because you want to be able to design future encounters to interact in interesting ways with the player's ideas for their character, then that I understand. But even then I, personally, would base it off of the actual actions, rather than asking explicitly.

Good point, I've used a varied system of both in the past.

Tony Vargas · Jul 11, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
Maybe try to imagine this as a movie. A character you thought was a "good guy" does something surprising. Do you want text on the screen explaining the character's thoughts and motivations? Or do you think, "Oh! I wasn't expecting that! I wonder where this is going....?"

Are you the viewer, actor, writer, choreographer, set designer, SFX artist, or director?

Because, in an RPG, what you're doing, whether as DM or Player, encompasses several of those.

Part of the point is to experience the story: viewer.
Part of roleplaying is to create that story: writer.
Part of roleplaying is portraying the character, maybe even with the 'method' of experiencing it's emotions: actor.
Part of roleplaying is setting the scene: writer, designer
Part of roleplaying is describing the action: choreographer, SFX

Everyone at the table, if the game is well-crafted enough, /should/ get the sense of seeing it play out as if it were a narrative, like a film or book or the like - but they also play a part, often a very important, collaborative, conscious part, in creating that narrative.