Players choose what their PCs do . . .

Tony Vargas

Legend
The far-from-perfect-but-better-than-nothing solution I use is that on any 'minimum' damage roll - here this would be 4 on the 4d6 - you add the bonuses to that roll (here giving 24) and then roll a die of that size to determine what damage you actually did.
Cute variant. I like it - you could call it "imploding dice."

This means there's a small (sometimes very small, but never zero) chance that anything with more than 1 h.p. can survive a hit from pretty much anything - and the minion model again defeats this.
It actually /doesn't/ 'defeat' it because a minion has a pretty decent chance of surviving an attack by a PC anywhere near it's nominal level (about 10 above its 'real' level), even though PCs can do /damage/ on a miss with things like Fireballs and Reaping Strike, because it has a special escape clause: "missed attacks never damage a minion."

Of course, they do 'in the fiction' - I mean, the Reaping Strike that rolled 22 and 'missed' and did 4 damage would have, had you been running the minion in it's 10-level-lower mode, 'actually' /hit/ and did 1d10+14 damage or something (say we're back on the 40 hp Ogre), which wouldn't have killed it. But, the DM is simplifying this encounter, by ignoring hits to less than 25 AC, and not tracking damage, so the little damage nudge of Reaping Strike (even on a natural 1), and the theoretical damage on a 'hit' of AC 16-24, isn't not happening (it could be visualized or not as the group sees fit), it's just, for convenience, not being tracked.

That's all minions are, really, an alternate-resolution way of keeping a much lower-'level' monster useable in a higher-level encounter. It's not like D&D has never used alternative resolution mechanics.

What does wrong mean here?
Something that challenges unexamined or long-accustomed assumptions, thus must be dismissed as automatically 'wrong,' since daring to considering it could lead to disequilibrium?

These are all examples of not knowing 4e or how its system works. …
In 4e the AC of a (say) Ogre Bludgeoneer 16th level minion will be higher (AC 28) compared to AC 19 for the Ogre Savage 8th level standard. …
In 4e there are no fumble rules.
In 4e there is no "spell research."
In 4e a higher level mage casts a more powerful magic missile spell. (Whether this is narrated as a single more powerful missile or a series of magical blasts pulse-laser style is a matter of discretion for the player of the wizard.) This is the same as the ability of a higher level fighter to strike more powerful blows, or fire more deadly shots with a bow or crossbow. There is no such thing in 4e as a mid-paragon mage casting the same magic missile spell with the same in-fiction power as a mid-heroic mage; or as a mid-paragon archer releasing an arrow with no greater deadliness of aim and power than a mid-heroic archer.
This is true prior to the infamous July pre-Essentials update, in which magic missile was re-written to use an effect line, it had remarkable ripple effects, causing numerous items and feats to be re-written to /try/ to deal with the fact the Wizard now had an auto-damage 'basic attack,' and it was never really fully handled before errata went out of style at WotC.

Post-Essentials, though Lanefan has a point: the same, say, 12hp damage Magic Missile that pops an Ogre Minion and 15th level, barely nudges the exact same Ogre run as if it were in a 5th level combat. The 10 point AC difference means nothing to it. One of the many implications of the new/Old eMissile that wasn't fully thought through an properly errata'd.

All for the sake of 'bringing it into line with the classic spell.'

(And that was Mike Mearls, setting the direction for 5e, right there.)

You are presenting a certain mechanical framework - AD&D - as if (i) it is a fictional framework and (ii) it is the only possible ficitonal framework. Frankly this is bizarre. There's nothing inconsistent, for instance, in a ficiton in which a more puissant archer can shoot down a fell beast with a single arrow (qv Legolas in LotR). The fact that AD&D doesn't allow for it simply reminds us of one of the oddities of AD&D, namely, it's relatively unrealistic treatment of archery.
Heh. In the LotR movie L one-shots a Mammoth, G is like, "that still counts as one!" Hey, L, a minion's a minion, however many squares it takes up.
This is not a theory. It's a property that any given D&D variant either possesses or doesn't. Clearly 4e doesn't possess this property. The making of an attack roll doesn't per se tell us whether or not physical harm is inflicted on the foe; nor does it tell us whether or not damage in the mechaincal sense (ie depletion of hp) occurs as part of the resolution procedure.
In 1e AD&D. An attack that 'hit' could produce no wound, /at all/. That was the rationale for saving successfully against, say, a poisoned blade, and dovetailed nicely with the rationale for PC's not growing to titanic size as they accumulated HD. Contrarily, the logic of D&D AC meant that attacks that 'missed' would frequently make contact - even solid, forceful contact - with the target, and merely fail to ablate hps. In the case of a /very/ large creatures with 'thick hides,' for instance, you might literally make contact with it, do visible damage to it's hide, but that damage might, in the context of it's hugeness, not translate to even a single hp - thus a 'miss.'

The idea that every hit in AD&D caused a real wound, and every miss was a clean wiff, is just lazy thinking. Gygax went on at length about the bizarre assumptions and mental gymnastics required by the abstraction of hps and 1 min rounds.

Were it relevant, which I don't think it is, 4e D&D is not a resource management game in the way that AD&D is.
Not in the exact way, but both are certainly roleplaying games, both are nominally evoking some sort of fantasy-genre, and certainly have resources to manage. I mean, 4e is 'different' in being /balanced/ in the sense of rough resource parity among the PCs...? But I don't see how that's entirely irrelevant to Lan's statement alluding to small chances of bad things happening possibly impacting said resource-management mini-game.
There are plenty of magical effects in 4e that can do AoE damage and will clear a field of minion ogres - this is because the magic of those mid-paragon wizards, sorcerers and invokers is more powerful than that of their mid-heroic precursors.
With one important proviso ...

...you had to hit each minion to kill it. In 4e, saving throws by the targets of magical & poison attacks were inverted to mathematically equivalent attack rolls by the attacker. A simplification that streamlined play (which I really noticed on returning to saves the first few weeks of HotDQ, because a player would use an attack cantrip, and we'd have to see if they needed to roll to hit, or I needed to roll a save) and made it overall more consistent. Many spells, like the classic fireball, did half damage on a miss (DoaM!), and so did some weapon attacks, neither to any particular controversy at the time.

But, during the Next playtest, saves came back, and kept 1/2 damage, but even the slightest suggestion of retaining the same privilege for weapon attacks ignited a firestorm (save: 1/2, don't know if MM made it or not). Also, come 5e no minions. Afterall, it would be appalling and 'wrong' for a poor monster to have no chance of surviving a hit!

Indeed, if there had been 4e-style minions in 5e, they'd've needed a special quality: a minion is never damaged when it successfully saves (it wouldn't need one for surviving misses, because there's no DoaM). So when you fireballed a bunch of kobolds, some of 'em would likely survive.

Instead, we get the polite fiction of BA applying to saves bonuses & DCs, low-level foes potentially making successful saves vs fireballs without needing to roll natural 20s - and dying instantly from the 1/2 damage.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

We should also keep in mind that most of us are not disciplined about differentiating between stating general intent, specific intent, and narration of result.

In a bar, a guy dumps a beer in your lap, and laughs at you. You stand up, crack your knuckles and announce, "I'm gonna kick your butt!"

That's a declaration of desire - and even figurative, at that, given that several punches to the face are apt to be considered fulfilling the intent, even though there's no kicking or butts involved. And the combat hasn't started, so maybe the butt will be kicked, maybe it won't, and whose butt actually gets kicked has yet to be determined.

In a game where such declarations may well be made semi-in-character, but taken as input into the resolution mechanic, we do need to be thoughtful about pulling this apart.

On the last sentence:

I agree that they can be made semi-in-character in the sort of meta "self-talk" that occurs in life as someone is navigating a consequential decision-point. To themselves, people transmit a desire...perhaps to visual the outcome so that it moralizes them toward the will to act. To their nervous system, they issue a command. In the world, the collision of opposing desires, wills, and actions allow us discover the outcome.

I do agree that we need to be thoughtful about pulling it all apart, but some systems focus on alleviating this burden, through clarified ethos and clear, concrete play procedures so that our role as intermediary (between the input of declaration, the processing of deriving resolution, and the output of that resolution) can be reduced in key ways (reduction in cognitive burden, reduction in table handling time, reduction in GM stress-load, increase in overall mental bandwidth available for deployment/transmission/absorption of other things such as creativity and improvisation and better active listening skills or perception of nonverbal cues).
 

pemerton

Legend
you had to hit each minion to kill it.

<snip>

we get the polite fiction of BA applying to saves bonuses & DCs, low-level foes potentially making successful saves vs fireballs without needing to roll natural 20s - and dying instantly from the 1/2 damage.
In 4e a minion is also killed by any damage that doesn't require an attack roll to inflcit - eg zone damage. Having GMed a long campaign with a zone-heavy sorcerer I've seen the anti-minion effect of such zones. In the fiction, this is a sign of the power of the fire (or whatever it is) that this sorcerer conjures up.

As far as AD&D and 5e save-for-half is concerned, it's always struck me as odd that most ordinary beings (1 HD or less including kobolds, goblins, men-at-arms etc) are incapable of diving for cover and surviving a fireball or similar (because the half damage is still going to be fatal for most of them on most occasions).

That's all minions are, really, an alternate-resolution way of keeping a much lower-'level' monster useable in a higher-level encounter. It's not like D&D has never used alternative resolution mechanics.
As you're presenting it, minions are an approximiation framework: set a higher to-hit number (ie levelled-up AC) and only track hits that reach that number - with a single hit being enought (ie 1 hp).

I've personally never thought of them in quite that way, perhaps because (i) I've never used called-shot rules in AD&D, and (ii) I don't think of their being a "true" (standard) AC and hp value to which the minion resolution approximates. But I fully agree that they are an alternative resolution system. They take full advantage of the various mathematical components of the D&D system (AC, hp, damage, etc) and play with them to produce the right fiction for the right tier of PC.

My own take on 4e, given the way that the PHB and DMG present the tiers of play, is that while all the numbers are purely resolution devices, the tiers are something that is part of the fiction. Perhaps not strictly literally, but in the sense that - in the fiction - it is evident when a being is capable of doing the sorts of things described as apt for each of the tiers. ANd then on the GM side we use the various resolution devices (minions, solos, swarms, etc) to express our creatures and NPCs in ways that suit the fiction of the tiers.

I've always thought that this is one of the reasons [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has described 4e D&D as "fiction first" rather than "mechanics first". It contrast very markedly in this respect with systems like RQ or RM which fall under the Forge lable purist-for-system simulationism and which lead with the mechanical framework and read all the fiction from that. 4e is virtually the opposite of purist-for-system.

I also want to tie this back to one of [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s recent posts. Campbell referred to the role of the system being to facilitate and even force a certain sort of authenticity, antagonism and playing to find out. He flagged GM mediation as possible burden on this. 4e D&D minion mechanics are one form of GM mediation; they are one example of how 4e sometimes requires the GM to already form a view about what the fiction requires in terms of challenge - eg should this creature be presented as a standard or a minion? what should the complexity of this skill challenge be? This isn't a fom of railroading - it doesn't impose GM pre-determined outcomes onto the fiction - but I think it is possibly a reduction in the sort of "pressure to authenticity" that Campbell has described.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
In 4e a minion is also killed by any damage that doesn't require an attack roll to inflcit - eg zone damage. Having GMed a long campaign with a zone-heavy sorcerer I've seen the anti-minion effect of such zones. In the fiction, this is a sign of the power of the fire (or whatever it is) that this sorcerer conjures up.
Yeah, I'm aware. ;) I'm also fine with minions 'dying' because they flee, surrender, collapse in panic - or can't bring themselves to cross a wall of flame, say. The mechanics are that the minion who takes any damage is done, exactly how can fit the narrative however.


As far as AD&D and 5e save-for-half is concerned, it's always struck me as odd that most ordinary beings (1 HD or less including kobolds, goblins, men-at-arms etc) are incapable of diving for cover and surviving a fireball or similar (because the half damage is still going to be fatal for most of them on most occasions).
/Somethig/, if not everything, about hit points and saving throws is going to have to strike you odd at /some/ point. ;) They really do get pretty whack. Making all attacks use attack rolls is not just a simplification, it makes you stop and think, 'hey, why is this so messed up, anyway, let's fix it.'

As you're presenting it, minions are an approximiation framework: set a higher to-hit number (ie levelled-up AC) and only track hits that reach that number - with a single hit being enought (ie 1 hp).
Yep, with the minor proviso that their an approximation framework /of an approximation framework/. It might feel 'right,' though, to consider any given creature's 'real stats' it's "Standard" stats... BTW, that'd mean that PC's are actually all about 4 levels higher than their class level - since PC's are generally about equivalent to Elites.

I've personally never thought of them in quite that way, perhaps because (i) I've never used called-shot rules in AD&D, and (ii) I don't think of their being a "true" (standard) AC and hp value to which the minion resolution approximates. But I fully agree that they are an alternative resolution system.
Exactly: Both regular old monster stats & taking averages for loads of 'em and sliding a 4e monster from Solo through Elite & Standard to Minion if not Swarm are just 'approximation frameworks' for the mechanics to model a desired challenge in the narrative.

And, really, in fiction, the Heroes' relationship with monsters they slay can be quite inconsistent. When you first face a new monster, it's often a huge threat, seems nearly invulnerable, tosses everyone around. Then you figure out how to kill it, and barely defeat one...

… by the end of the 'season' or the 4th book or whatever, even minor characters are mowing their way through the same monsters.

It was a very evident phenomenon on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for an amusing, and occasionally extreme instance.

My own take on 4e, given the way that the PHB and DMG present the tiers of play, is that while all the numbers are purely resolution devices, the tiers are something that is part of the fiction. Perhaps not strictly literally, but in the sense that - in the fiction - it is evident when a being is capable of doing the sorts of things described as apt for each of the tiers. ANd then on the GM side we use the various resolution devices (minions, solos, swarms, etc) to express our creatures and NPCs in ways that suit the fiction of the tiers.
There's certainly a clear intent that the nature/content/scope of the fiction will change with each Tier. Some DMs 'get' that and do a great job. Others choke and deliver the same kinds of scenarios at every Tier. It's one of the harder things to do as a 4e DM - a job that's otherwise awfully easy, IMHO.

I've always thought that this is one of the reasons [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has described 4e D&D as "fiction first" rather than "mechanics first".
It's funny, because in systems like 4e and Hero, mechanics /really matter/ in a hard-numbers, hard-rules kind of way, and fiction can be customized quite a bit. But, that actually facilitates starting with what you want and finding things with mechanics that approximate something that evokes that, once you file off the serial numbers and reskin it.

I also want to tie this back to one of [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s recent posts. Campbell referred to the role of the system being to facilitate and even force a certain sort of authenticity, antagonism and playing to find out. He flagged GM mediation as possible burden on this. 4e D&D minion mechanics are one form of GM mediation; they are one example of how 4e sometimes requires the GM to already form a view about what the fiction requires in terms of challenge - eg should this creature be presented as a standard or a minion? what should the complexity of this skill challenge be? This isn't a fom of railroading - it doesn't impose GM pre-determined outcomes onto the fiction - but I think it is possibly a reduction in the sort of "pressure to authenticity" that Campbell has described.
I can see that. I can also see shifting the same alternate resolution frameworks to the players' side of the court, if you wanted to.

I posted something like that not so very long ago...


...There it is:
https://www.enworld.org/forum/showt...what-stinks)&p=7615703&viewfull=1#post7615703
 
Last edited:

My own take on 4e, given the way that the PHB and DMG present the tiers of play, is that while all the numbers are purely resolution devices, the tiers are something that is part of the fiction. Perhaps not strictly literally, but in the sense that - in the fiction - it is evident when a being is capable of doing the sorts of things described as apt for each of the tiers. ANd then on the GM side we use the various resolution devices (minions, solos, swarms, etc) to express our creatures and NPCs in ways that suit the fiction of the tiers.

I've always thought that this is one of the reasons @Manbearcat has described 4e D&D as "fiction first" rather than "mechanics first". It contrast very markedly in this respect with systems like RQ or RM which fall under the Forge lable purist-for-system simulationism and which lead with the mechanical framework and read all the fiction from that. 4e is virtually the opposite of purist-for-system.

The present conversation about Monster Roles underpins the "fiction first" nature of 4e.

Imagine a scenario where the PCs were just in a sort of "Race Against Time" Skill Challenge where they know that an undead horde are converging on a steading and will overwhelm it without the party's aid.

They fail.

The field-stone wall has been breached. The Guard is nearly slain and the people of the steading and their few remaining forces have fallen back to the haphazardly fortified Common House. The fallen souls now bulwark the undead legions.

From a GMing perspective, you've got:

1) A handful of beleagured men-at-arms already battle-weary and shell-shocked.

2) Waves of ravenous ghouls, reinforced by any who fall to their midst.

3) Trope-wise, we want this to play out like classic zombie-horror, with the undead like a mass of grasping arms and snapping mouths, dragging down and tearing apart anything in its way, absorbing it into its mass.

Them getting through the barricaded doors or windows and into the common house would be disastrous (not just because they would murder civilians, but the positive feedback loop of increasing their numbers would increase the danger proportionately).

Further still, the extra numbers of the steading's Guard need to help...but the fear of them adding to the numbers of the dead needs to be real.





So this is the fiction we're looking for the mechanics to support. Now we can look to the mechanics to bring this to life.

* The 5 living Guards are of-level Minion Soldiers (so good AC) and a Trait that when they're adjacent to an ally, they get +2 Defenses.

* The bulk of the enemy force will be Huge Swarms with a passive Aura 1 that (a) Slows enemies and (b) does 10 damage to the barricaded openings to the Common House. If the double doors or a window takes 30 damage, its fortifications are lost and it can be freely traversed.

* We'll have 10 slain Guards as of-level Minion Ghouls and the others slain will just be narratively absorbed into the Swarms.

* We'll have 20 Minion Villagers inside the Common House. Any Guards or Villagers that are killed "heals" the Swarm that killed them for 5 HP (125 HP total potential) and then they're reanimated as an of-level Minion Ghoul.

* We'll have some kind of Elite Leader of the horde which buffs them and can Force Move them.

* Now we just have to figure out the initial Encounter Budget based on how deadly and desperate we want the fight to be. We already know we have 10 of-level Minion Ghouls. We subtract that from the budget to determine (a) the level of the Elite Leader and (b) the level and number of the Swarms.

* Obviously, things get more hairy if members of the Guard go down and significantly so if the horde is able to break into the Common House. This creates a layer to the decision-points that each PC is making individually and the party as collective (in terms of protecting NPC allies and controlling enemy forces).

* We'll want a covered porch that surrounds the structure that can be collapsed on enemies as stunt (AoE damage that Swarms are vulnerable to). Perhaps some large firepits nearby that the defenders have ignited for visual purposes (this should be at night) and to weaponize (hazardous terrain for Forced Movement).
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I agree with much of what @Manbearcat just posted. The underlying tools 4e GMs have access to accurately reflect the fiction provide a means to properly convey the emotional weight of the battle before them. I view their responsible use as a function of framing. Just like clocks in Blades or GM moves in Apocalypse World they can definitely be misused. I think it's important to leave room for GM judgement in any role playing game. What's important to me is that these tools are used responsibly and during the act of play GM mediation is minimized so they can focus on adversity and playing to find out what happens. What I want is when a GM or any other player is trying to shape events to match their own creative vision that it is as obvious as possible. Most of the 4e machinery is right out there in the open for all to see.

My own falling out with 4e is due to a couple things. All the resolution mechanics are built around a team of PCs working in tandem where my favored approach is a collection of individuals with their own needs and desires that are sometimes allies, sometimes rivals, and occasionally enemies. Some games like Masks and Blades I can deal with because the team is very much something thematically important. The other issue I have is there really is no built in pathos to the characters as generated. There are some great conflicts built into the setting, but no initial impetus for the characters. You can borrow from other games for this, but mostly I would rather just play other games. Plus I get into less arguments putting an Apocalypse World game together.

Addendum: I just wanted to say real quick that games that utilize a standardized action economy massively favor lesser skilled opponents in a way that is unrealistic. As a trained martial artist (Krav Maga/ Jujitsu/ Muay Thai ) I can tell you that breaking past the defenses of a more skilled opponent is incredibly difficult. You might get a lucky shot in, but no where near what happens in most games.
 
Last edited:

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
All the resolution mechanics are built around a team of PCs working in tandem where my favored approach is a collection of individuals with their own needs and desires that are sometimes allies, sometimes rivals, and occasionally enemies.
Regardless of the rest of your post, xp just for this bit alone!

And it goes beyond just the resolution mechanics and beyond just 4e - some DMs in all editions force their parties to work in tandem via various house rules that discourage or even ban anything else; and some players force it through peer pressure. Your favoured approach here exactly matches mine, both as player and DM.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
What does wrong mean here?

These are all examples of not knowing 4e or how its system works.

In 4e the AC of a (say) 16th level ogre will be higher than that of an 8th level ogre (eg AC 28 for the Ogre Bludgeoneer 16th level minion compared to AC 19 for the Ogre Savage 8th level standard). AC in 4e doesn't reflect simply the armour that is worn (hide armour in both cases). It is a mechanical device for adjudicating the success of attack rolls that reflects the overall fictional context. Statting an ogre as a higher level minion rather than a lower-level standard involves stepping up the AC to the appropriate level, while stepping down the hit points. This change in the mathematical operations performed during resolution don't change the fiction.

In 4e there are no fumble rules. A GM is free to narrate a missed attack by an ogre minion as a fumbled swing. S/he is even free to narrate it as inflicting a pin-prick's worth of physical harm to another ogre minion in the vicinity. In 4e that narration would be mere colour and is not reflected in the resolution process (similar to the way in which, in AD&D, narrating a missed attack as glancing of armour is mere colour - contrast, say, Burning Wheel where that is not mere colour and has mechanical significance and is a permitted narration only when the mechanics provide for it).

In 4e a higher level mage casts a more powerful magic missile spell. (Whether this is narrated as a single more powerful missile or a series of magical blasts pulse-laser style is a matter of discretion for the player of the wizard.) This is the same as the ability of a higher level fighter to strike more powerful blows, or fire more deadly shots with a bow or crossbow. There is no such thing in 4e as a mid-paragon mage casting the same magic missile spell with the same in-fiction power as a mid-heroic mage; or as a mid-paragon archer releasing an arrow with no greater deadliness of aim and power than a mid-heroic archer.

In 4e there is no "spell research" of the sort you describe - ie mechanics-first spell descriptions intended to exploit weak points in the rules. There are plenty of magical effects in 4e that can do AoE damage and will clear a field of minion ogres - this is because the magic of those mid-paragon wizards, sorcerers and invokers is more powerful than that of their mid-heroic precursors.

You are presenting a certain mechanical framework - AD&D - as if (i) it is a fictional framework and (ii) it is the only possible ficitonal framework. Frankly this is bizarre. There's nothing inconsistent, for instance, in a ficiton in which a more puissant archer can shoot down a fell beast with a single arrow (qv Legolas in LotR). The fact that AD&D doesn't allow for it simply reminds us of one of the oddities of AD&D, namely, it's relatively unrealistic treatment of archery.

Why?

Why?

What is the inconsistency in the fiction in which a ghoul which is a handy challenge for a mid-heroic PC is little challenge to a mid-paragon PC?

The maths of this are, for present purposes which is at the level of generalities, no different from minion rules. I can even make the point by rephrasing what you have said: a reduced chance to hit but significantly increased chance to kill as level advances is a nice reflection of - in the fiction - the character's skill increasing.

This is not a theory. It's a property that any given D&D variant either possesses or doesn't. Clearly 4e doesn't possess this property. The making of an attack roll doesn't per se tell us whether or not physical harm is inflicted on the foe; nor does it tell us whether or not damage in the mechaincal sense (ie depletion of hp) occurs as part of the resolution procedure.

This can easily be seen in the fact that 4e allows for hit point depletion on a failed attack roll; and allows for hit point depletion to be narrated as other than physical harm in the fiction; and clearly permits a failed attack roll against a minion to be narrated as the non-fatal infliction of physical harm.

Were it relevant, which I don't think it is, 4e D&D is not a resource management game in the way that AD&D is.
I had a great big long reply 3/4 typed in when my computer decided to crash; lack of patience means I'm not about to start over. :)

But a few fast points:

4e really - really? - doesn't allow a PC to research and design a new spell and add it to the game/fiction? That kinda puts a DM on the spot when she's asked "How were the spells I cast now first designed, and why can't I attempt the same thing?"

The numbers and recovery rates etc. are different but 4e is still a resource management game, just like all the other editions.

The inconsistency in the fiction is not that "a ghoul which is a handy challenge for a mid-heroic PC is little challenge to a mid-paragon PC", it's that the ghoul itself has to be changed in the fiction in order to make this the case, rather than the ghoul just stay as it was and let the skill/level advancement of the PC cover this off.
 

Sadras

Legend
The inconsistency in the fiction is not that "a ghoul which is a handy challenge for a mid-heroic PC is little challenge to a mid-paragon PC", it's that the ghoul itself has to be changed in the fiction in order to make this the case, rather than the ghoul just stay as it was and let the skill/level advancement of the PC cover this off.

Bold emphasis mine. How is the change from x hit points to 1 hit point a change in the fiction?
I see it as a change in the mechanics. Usually minions are afforded a higher AC, higher saves and greater damage than their original counterparts, and yes their hit points are reduced to 1. But that is all mechanics.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I do agree that we need to be thoughtful about pulling it all apart, but some systems focus on alleviating this burden, through clarified ethos and clear, concrete play procedures so that our role as intermediary (between the input of declaration, the processing of deriving resolution, and the output of that resolution) can be reduced in key ways (reduction in cognitive burden, reduction in table handling time, reduction in GM stress-load, increase in overall mental bandwidth available for deployment/transmission/absorption of other things such as creativity and improvisation and better active listening skills or perception of nonverbal cues).

Yep, the issue I raised can be resolved with strict adherence to a game process. But, any time you engage in a game process, you are apt to lift a player out of immersion. This is hardly an issue with, say, a complicated D&D combat, where there are so many dice flying around that one more process bit won't harm anything in that sense. In the middle of a tense interpersonal role play, scene, though, asking a player to stop and restate their intents in specific game terms and format can be a total buzzkill, and worse if there's a bit of player-GM negotiation that goes along with it.

Real, practical play probably generally works in a compromise, or often taking on some uncertainty for sake of cognitively smooth play.
 

Remove ads

Top