D&D General Gamer Stats From White Dwarf in the 80s

ad_hoc · Jul 2, 2019

Lots of defensive guys in here.

Hussar · Jul 2, 2019

Venley said:
I was in the UK, bought every White Dwarf till it became a magazine promoting solely Games Workshop games, was 27 at the time and had been playing for 8 years and did not reply to the poll. I remember being appalled at the gender percentages. While at university my experience had been 2 female players out of GM & 6 but since then about 15%, ie usually just me.

Female, almost always played humans, GM'ed half the time we played. Was running WFRP, AD&D & Rolemaster and playing Rolemaster & Spacemaster at the time. Owned Runequest & Harnworld too but had not yet started running them.

And frequently ignored (or harassed if I ventured in alone) in games shops until the owners realised I was the one making the purchasing decisions not my husband. Had stopped going to conventions due to harassment.

Yet, funnily enough, everyone wants to say that you couldn't possibly have been harassed by gamers. That never happens. :uhoh:

It's really, really sad the lengths folks will go to to ignore the issues in our hobby.

Hussar · Jul 2, 2019

Venley said:
Perhaps that is true for you Celebrim but I can tell you as a female gamer that
a) I and the first dozen or so women gamers I knew did not come into gaming via boyfriends/fathers etc. That has more commonly been my experience of the past 20 years rather than the first 20 years.
b) I have never been excluded/bullied/assaulted by other women in or about gaming, just by men.

Shhh shhh shh. Don't you know that your experiences and anecdotes aren't welcome here? That anything which rocks the boat and paints nerdom in anything other than a shining golden beacon of welcoming light is dirty lies and falsehoods?

Yes, I know it's mind buggeringly stupid and it shouldn't be something we have to prove YET AGAIN for the ten thousandth time, but, there it is. We must never speak of the past in any other terms than nerds and geeks as completely socially welcoming groups ready with feather pillows and warm cocoa to anyone in need.

Bloody sad freaking joke.

JonnyP71 · Jul 2, 2019

Nobody is saying that at all.

We're saying that experiences will differ based on age mainly, social circles, and possibly era.

Venley is older than me for example - my group of shrieking teenage geeky boys would have welcomed any female players gladly - but girls didn't want to associate with us (because we were geeks!! And being teenage boys we were also very irritating, so that's understandable

).

Hussar · Jul 2, 2019

JonnyP71 said:
Nobody is saying that at all.

We're saying that experiences will differ based on age mainly, social circles, and possibly era.

Venley is older than me for example - my group of shrieking teenage geeky boys would have welcomed any female players gladly - but girls didn't want to associate with us (because we were geeks!! And being teenage boys we were also very irritating, so that's understandable ).

Yes, they are saying EXACTLY that. Every time this sort of thing comes up, we see EXACTLY the same thing. Any criticism of geekdom is brushed off as "well, not at my table." as if that somehow counters the experiences that women were having (and, unfortunately are STILL having) in the hobby.

No, the reason that virtually no women existed in the hobby for decades ISN'T because of other people making fun of them or bullying them. That might have been part of it. Maybe? I don't know. But, I do know that women have been on the receiving end of the very short end of a very stinky gamer stick for a LONG time. Between mechanics that directly sideline female characters, to cheesecake art, to virtually no marketing to women, to incredibly toxic behavior from people (and sometimes "respected" people) in the hobby, we don't have the right to point to anyone else for why our hobby has been pretty much a white boys club for decades. WE are the reason for it.

We shouldn't have to have this conversation every freaking time someone points to the gender disparity in the hobby.

Lylandra · Jul 2, 2019

I'm maybe too young to compare my experience to the "dawn of TTRPGs", but me and my sister were huge geeks in the 90's. And natural RPers as well (our make-belief outdoor adventures with the other kids were kinda fantastical).

Now, I myself might have been an outlier as I cared little for gender stereotypes and tended to stick with the boys, which led to my huge interest in video games, especially RPGs. For my sis and the rest of the girls? We had a huge rise of anime/manga geekdom when Sailor Moon first aired. Artist circles and manga clubs were formed and the younger girls RPed as their favorite characters during school breaks (Yeah, I guess these were also the humble beginnings of Cosplay in my country). Then the internet became a thing for the masses and many girls and women gathered on fansites where they continued to RP online.

Thing is, many of these spaces were predominantly female. I only learned about TTRPGs when I was 15-16. Got me a DSA boxed set, but rarely found people to play with. The boys in our school were more interested in Shadowrun which sounded extremely weird and overly complicated for someone who was used to just create a character and interact or solve conflict via dialogue or description alone.

I came to D&D in 2002 when a guy from our driving school invited me to his (all-male) group and got hooked

JonnyP71 · Jul 2, 2019

Hussar said:
Yes, they are saying EXACTLY that. Every time this sort of thing comes up, we see EXACTLY the same thing. Any criticism of geekdom is brushed off as "well, not at my table." as if that somehow counters the experiences that women were having (and, unfortunately are STILL having) in the hobby.

No, the reason that virtually no women existed in the hobby for decades ISN'T because of other people making fun of them or bullying them. That might have been part of it. Maybe? I don't know. But, I do know that women have been on the receiving end of the very short end of a very stinky gamer stick for a LONG time. Between mechanics that directly sideline female characters, to cheesecake art, to virtually no marketing to women, to incredibly toxic behavior from people (and sometimes "respected" people) in the hobby, we don't have the right to point to anyone else for why our hobby has been pretty much a white boys club for decades. WE are the reason for it.

We shouldn't have to have this conversation every freaking time someone points to the gender disparity in the hobby.

How does that in ANY way contradict anything I've said? The article was referring to the balance of gaming specifically in the UK in the 80s, and I gave my own experiences, as a geeky teen in the UK in the 80s - my all male group of teenage misfits, we'd have welcomed anybody to game with us who wanted to.... but it was the girls who were the harshest to us.

You're right though, gaming was created by awkward geeky males, and as a result appealed to similarly awkward geeky males. The industry at the time didn't know any better. Early mechanics came from wargames - a mainly male pursuit, artwork could be iffy too.

Sacrosanct · Jul 2, 2019

Hussar said:
Yes, they are saying EXACTLY that. Every time this sort of thing comes up, we see EXACTLY the same thing. Any criticism of geekdom is brushed off as "well, not at my table." as if that somehow counters the experiences that women were having (and, unfortunately are STILL having) in the hobby.

No, the reason that virtually no women existed in the hobby for decades ISN'T because of other people making fun of them or bullying them. That might have been part of it. Maybe? I don't know. But, I do know that women have been on the receiving end of the very short end of a very stinky gamer stick for a LONG time. Between mechanics that directly sideline female characters, to cheesecake art, to virtually no marketing to women, to incredibly toxic behavior from people (and sometimes "respected" people) in the hobby, we don't have the right to point to anyone else for why our hobby has been pretty much a white boys club for decades. WE are the reason for it.

We shouldn't have to have this conversation every freaking time someone points to the gender disparity in the hobby.

Yeah, I can’t see how anyone can deny not only the history of not being female friendly, but the current attitude as well. There are three main issues that I saw and still see to an extent that we as gamers need to be honest with ourselves.

1. Outright harassment. This includes the sexist comments and the constant flirting with a female player, as well as the comments about how women are “such and such”
2. Using the mechanics and game to harass women. “Garogh (the male players PC) looks over at Eleah and gives her a big wink. As soon as I’m done having my way with these harlots, how about you and I hook up? What!? It’s just my character, not me!”
3. White knights. These are the guys who can’t get dates with women and think that if they swing way over the other way, and act like any hint of disagreement with someone who happens to be a woman means it’s sexism even if it has nothing to do with gender, the woman in question will like them. They feel all women need to be protected and quickly leap to their defense. It always ends the same. Said dude gets a sense of entitlement like he deserves her attention because he stood up for all wimmins! And when rejected, he starts the shaming campaign.

These problems might not be as bad as they were, and we’ve made leaps and bounds regarding art and marketing, but the attitudes at the table are still pretty bad. Ignoring it won’t help anyone.

ad_hoc · Jul 2, 2019

JonnyP71 said:
How does that in ANY way contradict anything I've said? The article was referring to the balance of gaming specifically in the UK in the 80s, and I gave my own experiences, as a geeky teen in the UK in the 80s - my all male group of teenage misfits, we'd have welcomed anybody to game with us who wanted to.... but it was the girls who were the harshest to us.

You're right though, gaming was created by awkward geeky males, and as a result appealed to similarly awkward geeky males. The industry at the time didn't know any better. Early mechanics came from wargames - a mainly male pursuit, artwork could be iffy too.

Wanting to play with someone and creating a safe and inviting space for them can be entirely different things.

Our culture being the way it is makes the world far more dangerous and uncomfortable for women than men. It's hard for men to realize because we don't live that life.

So we should listen to women. Let them speak. Don't contradict their experiences.

It's hard to believe that your group would have been a supportive place for women back then when you're not even being supportive now.

Sacrosanct · Jul 2, 2019

Anyone who doesn’t think there is still some hostility towards women in our industry, look no further than our own threads here whenever a woman gets hired by WoTC, and the comments that follow like, “as long as she’s qualified.” No one questions the qualifications of a male hire, but the implication that a woman only got hired because she’s a woman do exist. And it’s harmful.