D&D General Gamer Stats From White Dwarf in the 80s

Phil on Twitter has posted a few interesting stats from White Dwarf back in the 80s. These include what games were being played in 1987, and a letter about male/female ratios in the same era. Short version: mainly D&D, very few women.

Phil on Twitter has posted a few interesting stats from White Dwarf back in the 80s. These include what games were being played in 1987, and a letter about male/female ratios in the same era. Short version: mainly D&D, very few women.

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"Fascinating stuff - what RPGs were being played in the UK in 1987 ... T&T higher than you might've thought. Indiana Jones too!"


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"I know people say women have always been in gaming, and that's true. But this single stat highlights why for many of us seeing a female gamer in the wild was unheard of until the Masquerade began to change things... Average readership of White Dwarf in 1987 was 16.08... Which means they'd now be 48"

 

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Doug McCrae

Legend
I find it kind of hilarious that the early thread featured a parade of male rpgers making claims about female rpgers' experiences then one woman shows up and her stated experiences are the complete opposite.
 

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MGibster

Legend
I find it kind of hilarious that the early thread featured a parade of male rpgers making claims about female rpgers' experiences then one woman shows up and her stated experiences are the complete opposite.

Most of my experiences with skeevy behavior among gamers comes from 2000 and later. As I've said earlier, my perspective is limited to my own which I will freely admit makes it very narrow and I certainly wouldn't use it as a baseline for what things were like. I suspect I saw more skeevy behavior in later years because there were more women gaming in 2001 than there was in 1989. If someone tells me they were turned away from role playing games in the 80s because of skeevy behavior I certainly don't doubt it.
 

Schmoe

Adventurer
Who cares?

Why would I want to dwell on the past? We screwed up. We, as the hobby, did virtually nothing to make it accessible to anyone who was different than us. We built a great big wall around ourselves and then patted ourselves on the back about how inclusive we were being by making a safe place for geekdom.

Who cares?

I care about what we do NOW. What we do going forward. That we recognize the need for inclusive art in products and praise publishers who do so and condemn publishers that do not. That we don't simply brush off the actions of geek stars such as getting drunk at conventions, stalking women in hotels and then assaulting staff. No, we look at those people and show them the door. They are not welcome in the hobby, regardless of what games they wrote. We don't spend endless discussions on how we can be 100% perfectly fair whenever allegations are brought up and how we cannot do anything unless there's the issue is 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt.

No, we stand up as a hobby and say, "No." "We don't want this person or that person in the hobby. This or that person does not represent what we, as a fandom, think we should be".

In other words, we actually ACT as inclusive as we pretended to be for forty years.

Nicely said, and a good reminder for all of us. Whatever happened in the past, happened. Now that we are supposedly so much wiser, we should act it.
 

S'mon

Legend
So, you absolve yourself of all blame? Fair enough I suppose.

Me, I realize that even though I don't think I ever harassed anyone in the hobby, nor do I think that I chased anyone away from the hobby, I am also obliquely responsible since I didn't become more active about inclusivity. I didn't insist that RPG products included art for both men and women that didn't depict women as sex toys. I bought products that were offensive. I contributed to the hobby in a thousand different ways, and none of them were actually addressing the fact that we were whiter than the average Klan meeting.

Yeah, I think we need to accept that toxicity in the D&D roleplaying hobby was primarily Hussar's fault.
 

MGibster

Legend
Yeah, I think we need to accept that toxicity in the D&D roleplaying hobby was primarily Hussar's fault.

Be cool. Hussar's being civil in a discussion on a subject that's often fraught with frustration, obfuscation, recrimination, misdirection, vexation, and ruination often born from an aspiration to cause a truncation of all conversation. Nothing I have seen from Hussar in this or other treads would suggest they are a toxic influence on gaming.
 

JonnyP71

Explorer
Thinking about the 'getting defensive' comments... I guess it's time to address that, and the statements to that effect.

Many people making such comments in this thread are not from the UK, and are likely not of the same age. The original post was referring to a specific poll in an edition of White Dwarf, referring to the UK gaming community. As I was 15-16, am a white male, and mainly played AD&D, I am firmly in the largest group in that poll, the most common type of gamer surveyed - by a mile. Thus, when criticising the poll results, claiming it was because the community was 'toxic' and 'non-inclusive', you are directly insulting me.

I have no control over my race, my gender, my upbringing, my school - and had very very limited influence over my social circle.

As a geeky little kid with ADHD, in an academically elite school, I was marginalised. My love of gaming only made this worse. All I ever strove for was to be accepted, and it was among fellow gaming geeks that I found that acceptance, a little clique of other lads, who for one reason or another were also on the fringes to some degree.... race and sexuality did not come into it, we didn't care, we just wanted to play games and not be bothered by other people.

To be told we should have created a safe space for possible female gamers is quite frankly ridiculous, we were boys in our mid teens who never spoke to females, it was an all-male private school.... Girls were scary, vicious creatures who pointed at us geeks, mocked us - at least that's what was firmly in our heads, due to common shared experiences. If there were exceptions, we didn't notice them as the vocal majority drowned them out.

And even if change would have been possible, we weren't aware there was even a problem with a lack of females in the hobby, because due to that vocal group who were doing the mocking, in our insecure, shy, nervous teenage minds, girls were not interested in us, or our games. So why would we even realise it was a 'problem' if there weren't any female gamers? It was just 'normal'. Saying we should have acted to rectify a problem we didn't know existed is akin to a person I don't know in the next street blaming me for his car getting a puncture because I didn't warn him a specific road had a problem with potholes!!!!

Our situation (geeks at an all male school) would have been mirrored all over the country in the early-mid 1980s. There were a few little clusters of gamers at my school in a couple of year groups. My brother and sister went to a much bigger mixed (state) school and saw no D&D played there. I had some local friends who also attended mixed (state) schools, they generally had no interest in RPGs, or had not even heard of them. There were some who I didn't dare mention gaming in front of for fear of being ostracised, the ultimate punishment for a teenage boy.

The hobby was much more niche here than in the USA, and I guess from my experience above, it was MUCH more common in the more academically orientated private school system. These are mostly single sex schools - which further widens any initial divide - more intellectually motivated, geeky kids, who tend to struggle with social skills, as that is (sadly) our way, and therefore even less interaction between the sexes.

So by railing against 'people getting defensive', by blaming the main UK gaming demographic at the time for the imbalance (toxic, unwelcoming, etc), you are basically insulting us over something we had NO control over. Is it any different to racist, sexist or homophobic insults in that sense?

Yes, among slightly older (19+), college based gaming groups, we would have had antagonistic, chauvinistic neckbeards doing as antagonistic, chauvinistic neckbeards do..... But the main demographic in that poll had NOTHING to do with those idiots. We were kids, just trying to find our way in a big, scary, unwelcoming world, and discovering solace in gaming.

So maybe try to *think* before you know it all. Ask questions. And don't jump to conclusions. And don't be surprised if people get defensive if you start making sweeping, ill-informed statements.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Irony

So maybe try to *think* before you know it all. Ask questions. And don't jump to conclusions. And don't be surprised if people get defensive if you start making sweeping, ill-informed statements.
I often see the males who played the games being blamed for the lack of female players. In the case of teenage groups, I can't help but feel that potential female gamers were discouraged more by their own peer groups.
 

JonnyP71

Explorer

Not even slightly. As I have said repeatedly, I experienced worse mocking from groups of girls than I did from groups of boys (mainly travelling to and from school by train - as we often played D&D on these journeys - or at least attempted to).

I'm not up for an argument any more in this thread. It's clear people simply read and infer only what they want to. Everything I have said is true and based on personal experience of being an awkward teen in the 80s.

I have nothing more to add.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Also now it's roughly 2 generations removed from when D&D is designed. The time frame involved is fairly similar to the children and teens of the 80s from WW2.

So blaming them for not being inclusive in the 80s with things like single sex schools is kind of like blaming the children and teenagers of the 40s for the war. It's absurd.

Times were different, no social media, no internet as such, corporal punishment existed in the schools (teachers could and would strap/cane you), alot of schools were single sex. Women could also cop it rough if she married an :):):):):):):):) even here domestic abuse wasn't a crime until the mid 80s.

If you were lucky you had decent parents who did the best they could as circumstances allowed. If you were unlucky it was your parents doing the abuse and in the 80s the law wasn't good for much in that regard at best child services night remove you and it was a crap shoot for fostering.

I mean it's only 30 years bad things still happen but back then it didn't even happen behind closed doors. Main point being it was just different.
 
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Doug McCrae

Legend
Not even slightly. As I have said repeatedly, I experienced worse mocking from groups of girls than I did from groups of boys (mainly travelling to and from school by train - as we often played D&D on these journeys - or at least attempted to).
You made a claim, not about your experiences, but about the experiences of female gamers. 'I experienced X therefore it is likely that many female gamers also experienced X'. That's an unsafe claim.
 

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