Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

In PathFinder 1E, you can play a Gunslinger/Monk. Does 2E allow that?
In PathFinder 1E, there were NPC classes like Peasent and Adept. Does 2E have NPC classes?

What else do I need to say?
 

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Kurviak

Explorer
In PathFinder 1E, you can play a Gunslinger/Monk. Does 2E allow that?
In PathFinder 1E, there were NPC classes like Peasent and Adept. Does 2E have NPC classes?

What else do I need to say?

You can’t play a PF1 Gunslinger/Monk using only the Core Rulebook, and what Paizo will be releasing in 3 weeks is PF2 Core Rulebook & Bestiary.

They decided to use a different approach to NPC building that is easier on the GM, more focused and less time consuming. But nothing stops a GM to use PC classes to build NPCs
 



And Starfinder... and 5e... and nearly any game designed by someone who had to touch 3e NPC creation for prolonged periods of time. So what is your point?

My point is that Pathfinder 1E had a lot of annoying things in it that hampered the play experience. In 2E, they made changes in order to remove those annoying things.

While I'm all for changing things to create a smoother play experience, a lot people feel the exact opposite. What's a crumby rule to one person is a vital component to another.

EDIT: this reminds me of an XKCD comic!
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
The point is that "telling the same stories" is as useless a metric as "you could say that about Edition X".

You can pretty much take any Golarion scenario, or an old AD&D scenario, and then run that in everything from OD&D to 5th Edition.

The only thing that would constitute a hard roadblock was if the scenario depended on a particular effect that your current rules engine simply cannot reproduce. A game without scrying, teleporting or, I dunno, speaking with the dead, could not be used if the D&D adventure assumed that capability.

I mean, of course, you could still run the adventure and work around the issue, but that I consider to be something else.

Likewise, if one edition says that Umber Hulks are high level mega monsters, and another makes them fairly weak early-mid-level monsters, you might want to add or subtract a Hulk or give them Goblin allies. That too, is something else - tinkering with enemy strength is required even within the same edition just by replacing a strong party run by experienced gamers for a weaker one or one run by neophyte players.

My point here is that focusing on those metrics is unproductive. Whether a particlar dndish game is successful or not relies entirely on other factors, since it is overwhelmingly likely you can tell the same stories in game B as in game A.

Saying "we need to be able to tell the same stories" is setting the bar incredibly low. It isn't saying much, if anything at all, about the specifics of the game; the look and feel of it; the presentation, the perceived strengths and weaknesses of various classes and so on; whether the game makes you feel empowered to do what your vision of your archetype tells you you should be able to do.

In sharp contrast to the fuzzyness of that, I am postulating that if 3.0 or Pathfinder were to be issued as a new game today, five years into the reign of 5th edition, that game would crash and burn.

Why? Because of two things in particular:
1) Except at low levels, martials become glorified bodyguards for the characters with access to (high-level) magics.
2) Creating monsters in general and humanoid NPCs in particular is a nightmare at higher levels. While individual players might well like having oodles of crunch to busy themselves with, they're playing a single character each. The DM, on the other hand...

However, the game would NOT fail because
3) you can't play any given specific subclass of a previous game. Everybody accepts that not all splat content will be available right at product launch. Arguing otherwise is plain silly.
4) it doesn't feel like D&D. This game (3.0 or Pathfinder) does feel like D&D - combats can be done quick (no excess focus on battlemats or condition-tracking); different class abilities work differently mechanically; spells and magic items feel sufficiently special and magical; etc

So the question I'm asking myself is: has Paizo even tried to address issues 1 and 2?

On 2) it seems there have been progress, so that's good. Still, spells and gear loadout can still mean the effort sinks under its own weight, so I'm not exactly holding my breath..

On 1) I'm not even sure I see any "disease insight" - that Paizo is even aware the age of LFQW has passed. If they only listen to rabid PF1 fans and only look inwards, it's quite possible they think they have done enough to combat LFQW only for us to realize that Wizards (Clerics etc) can circumvent the restrictions and at high level still utterly dominate their non-magical allies. (Both PF1 and 3.5 made a lot of promises regarding fixes to 3.0 which in retrospect was utter bollocks. 5E has conclusively shown that neither game came even close to truly fixing the endemic rot inherent in the entire 3.x stock) Which, I fear, will utterly alienate their game to the masses (that have been exposed to 5th Edition).

PS. Another reason PF2 could fail would be
5) if feats doesn't come across as "helping you customizing your character", but instead come across as absolutely mandatory core building blocks of that character, with two undesirable effects:
5a) that you can't get a look and feel of your character class just by browsing that segment of the classes chapter - that core abilities are hidden away in long boring lists of feats somewhere else in the book.
5b) how this utterly betrays the promise of streamlined character creation, if players perceive looking at feat lists to be essential in building their characters. There is nothing simple and streamlined about grokking the entirety of the Playtest feat catalogs.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
My point is that Pathfinder 1E had a lot of annoying things in it that hampered the play experience. In 2E, they made changes in order to remove those annoying things.

While I'm all for changing things to create a smoother play experience, a lot people feel the exact opposite. What's a crumby rule to one person is a vital component to another.
Then point taken. It does seem a bit annoying though when people complain about not being able to make a Gunslinger/Monk at the outset of PF2. I sympathize with the frustration of not having your character build immediately provided from Day 1, but it's not as if Paizo has ruled out Gunslingers or other class options entirely. Some will probably be better served by the multiclass-archetypes, while others will receive new classes later down the road. (I do think, however, that the gunslinger is a silly class concept.)

EDIT: this reminds me of an XKCD comic!
Insightful! That's how some of the reactions to PF2 (or any changes to D&D for that matter) come across.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Then point taken. It does seem a bit annoying though when people complain about not being able to make a Gunslinger/Monk at the outset of PF2. I sympathize with the frustration of not having your character build immediately provided from Day 1, but it's not as if Paizo has ruled out Gunslingers or other class options entirely. Some will probably be better served by the multiclass-archetypes, while others will receive new classes later down the road. (I do think, however, that the gunslinger is a silly class concept.)

Moreover, the gunslinger monk wasn't exactly a concept you could make at the outset of PF1 either. That came 2 years in with Ultimate Combat.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Moreover, the gunslinger monk wasn't exactly a concept you could make at the outset of PF1 either. That came 2 years in with Ultimate Combat.
I agree with that in principle, but it's a valid argument in terms of not wanting to make a switch in 2019, when one edition has the options already and one will only have them in the future. I mean, losing out on currently existing options is a pretty valid argument against making any almost any edition switch.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I agree with that in principle, but it's a valid argument in terms of not wanting to make a switch in 2019, when one edition has the options already and one will only have them in the future. I mean, losing out on currently existing options is a pretty valid argument against making any almost any edition switch.
I think that's fine to wait then, but I don't think that determines the quality of the edition. There were a number of tables that were still finishing their games of 4e and PF1 past 2014 before switching to 5e (my own table included). It would seem silly to argue that this would represent a valid indictment against 5e.
 

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