D&D 5E Lighting Effects

jaelis · Jul 7, 2019

My take:

FrogReaver said:
Suppose the PC stands in the dim light area and the NPC is in the Bright light area. If the PC wanted to perceive something about the NPC does he have disadvantage? If the NPC want's to perceive something about the PC does he have disadvantage?

No and yes. (Assuming they are trying to perceive using sight.

Now suppose the PC is standing 50 ft from the torch in the dark area and the NPC is in the bright area. Does anything change?

Nothing for the PC, but the NPC cannot see that PC.

Now suppose the PC is standing 50 ft from the torch in the dark area and the NPC in the dim area. Does anything change?

PC has disadvantage, NPC still can't see anything.

FrogReaver · Jul 8, 2019

Arvok said:
No. A darkness spell can only be perceived if someone could notice the area of darkness. So, at night a character might be able to see a torch at several hundred feet (because he could see the light in contrast to the lack thereof), but he wouldn't be to see the spot of darkness in a sea of black. If, however, a torch went into or behind the AoE of a darkness spell, an observer would see the torch suddenly stop shedding light. Depending on how far away the observer was from the torch he might suspect something unusual going on.

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, can the PC in magical darkness see an NPC 50ft away standing beside a torch? (Obviously the NPC can't see the PC in the magical darkness).

FrogReaver · Jul 8, 2019

jaelis said:
My take:

No and yes. (Assuming they are trying to perceive using sight.

Nothing for the PC, but the NPC cannot see that PC.

PC has disadvantage, NPC still can't see anything.

Do your answers change if the fighter is standing inside darkness created by the darkness spell?

Arvok · Jul 8, 2019

To the question about a PC inside a darkness spell:

No. Someone in magical darkness can't see anything (barring some special ability). Darkness (magical or otherwise) means no light is present, therefore it is impossible to see.

In RAW, darkvision allows characters to see in all but magical darkness which is one of the big problems I have with darkvision in RAW. Outdoors, a dwarf or half-orc might conceivably be able to see into the near infrared spectrum and thus be able to see when a human could not In RAW, someone with darkvision can see perfectly well in the bottom of a deep cave where there is no IR or even UV radiation bouncing around. This irks me.

5ekyu · Jul 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Can the guy in darkness see the NPC in the light?

Barring obscuring effects the lighting at the target is what matters.

jaelis · Jul 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Do your answers change if the fighter is standing inside darkness created by the darkness spell?

Yes, I think the darkness spell specifically blocks line of sight through its area.

FrogReaver · Jul 8, 2019

jaelis said:
Yes, I think the darkness spell specifically blocks line of sight through its area.

Why?

jaelis · Jul 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Why?

It seems like the most obvious way to interpret "darkness spreading to fill a sphere." Darkness doesn't normally "fill" things, it is actually just an "emptiness" of light. So if darkness fills a sphere, then I take it to mean that light is excluded from that sphere, which means that light cannot pass through it. This is supported by the fact that a creature with darkvision cannot see through the sphere; it would be illogical for darkvision to be blocked but not normal vision.

Another interpretation would be that light could pass through the sphere, but that everything inside it was invisible and effectively blinded. But I would not describe that as darkness filling the sphere. Similarly you might read it that creatures in the sphere were blinded, but that they could be seen from outside the sphere. But again that doesn't sound to me like darkness filling the sphere.

Historically, the 3e spell was a less ambiguous: it specified that all creatures in the area gained concealment. And in the 1e PHB it said the darkness is "impenetrable." So I'm sure some of my interpretation comes from those earlier versions.

DEFCON 1 · Jul 8, 2019

I also do everything based not on the lighting conditions of what the observer is standing in... I do it based on what the object or person being perceived is standing in.

- If the target is in bright light, any perception checks made to notice details are made normally.
- If the target is in dim light, any perception checks to notice details are made with disadvantage.
- If the target is in darkness, you cannot make any perception checks to notice details, and in fact cannot see the target at all.

If you have darkvision, move each result up one line. Perception checks to notice details on targets in bright light and dim light are made normally, perception checks on targets in darkness are made with disadvantage.

I treat the darkness spell not as though the area is just regular darkness, but rather that it is a sphere of what you might essentially consider black ink. It would be considered a "solid" object as far as light sources are concerned (whether within the sphere or behind the sphere). A light source brought into a darkness sphere disappears (and does not radiate any light out to any radius), and likewise a light source that goes behind the sphere also disappears, although the radius of light it projects might be noticed if it is wider than the sphere of darkness. Most of the time it does, and you'll probably have a zone of dim light haloing around the darkness sphere that the perceiver can notice.

Tony Vargas · Jul 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Why?

Well, for one thing, it's how magical darkness has always worked. Given that 5e was intentionally evoking the classic game, if 5e's natural language write-up can be interpreted in a way consistent with the classic game, that'd be the reasonable interpretation to go with. But, also, given 5e was intentionally trying to empower the DM, if you like some other interpretation better, use that.

Even looked at in a vacuum, it doesn't seem /that/ unclear: "A creature with Darkvision can't see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can't illuminate it." It'd be odd if non-magical light could pass through it without illuminating it. (Though, I wouldn't /completely/ discount the possibility, that would be more like a 'sphere of blindness' than darkness - not actually incompatible with the way things were sometimes described in older depictions, the phrase "cast darkness before their eyes" to mean 'disappeared' for instance.)

How would it even 'look' if it didn't block LoS? You can't see anything in it, but /can/ see things on the other side of it?