D&D 5E A Reliable Talent for Expert Stealth

Fenris-77 · Jul 9, 2019

I don't think expertise ruins the game precisely, but I do think it's throws a mighty big wrench into third pillar play. Expertise in Deception, for example, can be really difficult to deal with as a DM in an intrigue game. Not always, but often enough that I feel like it's an issue. I would also prefer a "yes and.." approach to additional success to just stacking mods to the sky.

ad_hoc · Jul 9, 2019

Let them be super sneaky. It's their thing.

Besides, these checks are available to the entire party at level 3 with Pass Without Trace.

ad_hoc · Jul 9, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I don't think expertise ruins the game precisely, but I do think it's throws a mighty big wrench into third pillar play. Expertise in Deception, for example, can be really difficult to deal with as a DM in an intrigue game. Not always, but often enough that I feel like it's an issue. I would also prefer a "yes and.." approach to additional success to just stacking mods to the sky.

The social skills aren't mind control and players only make ability checks when the DM deems it necessary due to an uncertain outcome.

The main antagonists of an intrigue campaign probably know a lot of what is going on so they're not going to be deceived.

The best liar in the world can't convince me that the Earth is flat for example.

Fenris-77 · Jul 9, 2019

ad_hoc said:
The social skills aren't mind control and players only make ability checks when the DM deems it necessary due to an uncertain outcome.

The difficulty is that when there is an uncertain outcome , thus a roll, one PC is auto succeeding, essentially, while the rest of the party would be appropriately challenged. It's hard to plan for both. I'm going to call this the Glitterboy conundrum.

I also think you might be underestimating how often Deception could be rolled in an intrigue campaign, and how flexible the possibilities are about what can be accomplished with a good untruth. Some of the best lies work with what someone knows and believes. Creative PCs aren't telling people the earth is flat.

iserith · Jul 9, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
The difficulty is that when there is an uncertain outcome , thus a roll, one PC is auto succeeding, essentially, while the rest of the party would be appropriately challenged. It's hard to plan for both. I'm going to call this the Glitterboy conundrum.

Why do you think that is a problem?

Fenris-77 · Jul 9, 2019

iserith said:
Why do you think that is a problem?

Because you can't challenge the party, only that particular character? The whole 3rd pillar is bare enough of nuance that this is, or often can be, a pretty significant barrier to party balance.

Deception in the hands of a creative player can be especially troublesome when the mod is high enough.

jgsugden · Jul 9, 2019

Once again - when a hero focuses that much on a skill, it is expected they will almost always succeed. It is superhuman. It is amazing. It is what makes them a hero. Expertise does exactly what it is supposed to do.

Don't fear their excellence. Celebrate it. Make the players feel awesome for being so great at (skill). That is what they envisioned when they made the skill system work as it does.

iserith · Jul 9, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
Because you can't challenge the party, only that particular character? The whole 3rd pillar is bare enough of nuance that this is, or often can be, a pretty significant barrier to party balance.

Deception in the hands of a creative player can be especially troublesome when the mod is high enough.

"Party balance" in what sense? Why is it bad that this character can do a thing well and others can't? Wouldn't it be the case that this expert won't be able to do other things as well in this or the other two pillars?

Also, how is "deception in the hands of a creative player" troublesome? Setting aside that the DM decides whether there is a roll or not in the first place, what's the actual trouble here? That the NPCs get messed with? Because, if so, that's kind of what the characters do, right?

Fenris-77 · Jul 9, 2019

I don't disagree in principle. However, the more common that skill is in the context of a particular game, the more difficult it is to accomplish that celebration without having the character in question doing too much stuff solo. This isn't an issue for a stealthy rogue in a standard campaign, it works fine. But with other skills in other kinds of campaigns it can be a problem.

iserith · Jul 9, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I don't disagree in principle. However, the more common that skill is in the context of a particular game, the more difficult it is to accomplish that celebration without having the character in question doing too much stuff solo. This isn't an issue for a stealthy rogue in a standard campaign, it works fine. But with other skills in other kinds of campaigns it can be a problem.

Really that just argues for the DM to balance the pillars of the game as much as he or she can in my view and to incentivize play to that end via XP and treasure. If the DM is leaning too heavily on any one pillar or incentivizing particular play to the exclusion of others, it's reasonable behavior for players to create and advance characters with particular skill proficiencies and other features and, within the context of that specific pillar, the rogue is going to shine in certain of those areas due to Expertise.

So this seems like a DM issue rather than a mechanics issue to me.