D&D 5E Saving Throws and non-proficiency

After seeing how it works in DnD Beyond (I'm forever getting mixed up as to whether DnD has round up or round down as the general rule), I think adding in half proficiency wouldn't be a bad idea. It gives some (slow) progression on non-proficient saving throws without granting too much power. The players would only gain a bonus to their non-proficient saves at 1st (+1), 9th (+2), and 17th level (+3) granting some scaling of all of their saving throws over their career. Their proficient saves will be only +1 better at 1st to 4th level but start pulling ahead a bit more from level 5.

I think I like this scaling more than no scaling of their non-proficient saves so I might run with it and see how it goes.

I wouldn't grant the half-prof bonus to other saves because I agree with others it detracts from which classes are better at which saves.

However, we did add Tier Advancement. There are different options, like a +1 ASI and a skill, martial weapon proficiency, etc. and one of those options is proficiency in a save. So, if the player wants, they could gain save proficiency at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels. While this might seem awesome, so far only one player has taken proficiency in a save, others have always opted for a +1 ASI and a skill or a different option.

If you did offer the half-prof bonus, I would make it a Feat:

Enduring Soul
When you take this feat you may add half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) to any saving throw you do not have proficiency in.

This way it isn't free and character can gain it if they want. While similar to Resilient, it doesn't offer full proficiency or an +1 ASI. Getting half bonus on four saves seems about equal IMO.

In fact, I think I will add this to our house-rules.

cbwjm said:

I'm thinking of granting all players half-proficiency to their non-proficient saving throws so that there is still at least some scaling of all saves for all classes as they level beyond the occasional ASI put into a stat (The cool thing is that you can adjust this in DnDBeyond and have it automated). Has anyone tried this? I'm not sure if this would be "Yay, I save more often, I AM UNSTOPPABLE!" fun or "Looks like I saved again, not much challenge in this game." non-fun. Just wanting to get some feedback for anyone who has done this.

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I tried this myself and there is no need. Mid to high level parties have a lot of save buff effects going on.

Firstly it further devalues dump stats (this is bad). Dump stats only ever really come into play when you're making a save based on that Stat. Watch your party Barbarian with the Int 8 cry when the Illithids and Intellect devourers come out to play.

Secondly, at mid to high level, there are a ton of buffs on Saves as it is.

Most common save Buffs are:

Bless
Bardic inspiration
Inspiration
Resilient
Nearby Paladins

Plus there are a lot of other niche class features that buff Saves (Divine Soul sorcerer from 1st level, War Wizard at will +4 to saves as a reaction, Monk proficiency in all saves + re-roll, Paladin aura, Bardic inspiration, Barbarian advantage on Str and Dex saves, Fighter Indomitable, Rogue Slippery mind etc etc).

You devalue those features a lot.

Also, in 5E failing a save isnt 'sit out the rest of this combat twiddling your thumbs'. Generally most effects allow a save every round, meaning it's at worst a round or two of suckage before the effect ends, so failing a save isnt a huge deal in most cases.

I still use +1/2 proficiency on Saves, but only for Champion Fighters as part of the Survivor feature (im a grognard and recall when Fighters used to have the best saves in the game; now they do again, and Champions can use the boost, plus it fits well with their 'static bonuses' thing).

Flamestrike said:

Dump stats only ever really come into play when you're making a save based on that Stat. Watch your party Barbarian with the Int 8 cry when the Illithids and Intellect devourers come out to play.

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Dump stats aren't a sin, they're inevitable, you only have so many points to go around.

Being bad at a save, and staying bad at a save is one thing. Getting worse at high level is quite another.

Secondly, at mid to high level, there are a ton of buffs on Saves as it is.
Inspiration, Resilient, Plus there are a lot of other niche class features that buff Saves (Divine Soul sorcerer from 1st level, War Wizard at will +4 to saves as a reaction, Monk proficiency in all saves + re-roll, Paladin aura, Bardic inspiration, Barbarian advantage on Str and Dex saves, Fighter Indomitable, Rogue Slippery mind etc etc).
You devalue those features a lot.

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Actually, advantage and re-rolls are /more/ valuable if you're not falling behind on your saves, like you do, now, with bad saves on low-priority stats.

Also, in 5E failing a save isnt 'sit out the rest of this combat twiddling your thumbs'. Generally most effects allow a save every round,

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Which is one thing if you save on an 8 or 12 or something - when you need a natural 19, it's sit out the rest of the scene.

Tony Vargas said:

Dump stats aren't a sin, they're inevitable, you only have so many points to go around.

Being bad at a save, and staying bad at a save is one thing. Getting worse at high level is quite another.

Actually, advantage and re-rolls are /more/ valuable if you're not falling behind on your saves, like you do, now, with bad saves on low-priority stats.

Which is one thing if you save on an 8 or 12 or something - when you need a natural 19, it's sit out the rest of the scene.

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A fighter with 8 wisdom vs a max level wizard needs a 20 to pass. A fighter with 8 wisdom vs a level 11 wizard needs 18 to pass. A fighter with 8 wisdom vs a level 5 wizard needs a 16 to pass.

I fighter with 8 wisdom vs a level 1 wizard needs a 14 to pass. That seems reasonable to me for someone with no proficiency and a bad save. It's ridiculous that that 14 to pass becomes a 20 to pass by end game.

jaelis said:

Would you do the same for monsters, or is it more of a “the pcs are special” kind of thing?

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"Special: Heroic" or "Special: Short Bus"?

Flamestrike said:

Nearby Paladins

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They're always lurking around corners. Don't they have something else to do, someplace else to be?

Someone on another thread (for everything, not just saves) put forth a rather interesting idea. It looked something like it was adding half the modifier... but at your proficiency for level -2. this made it so that you got your first +1 at level 3, then you get your +2 at level 10, and your final +3 wouldn't be until level 19. Made proficiency still relevant, while keeping non-proficient saves somewhat survivable at higher levels.

Shiroiken said:

Someone on another thread (for everything, not just saves) put forth a rather interesting idea. It looked something like it was adding half the modifier... but at your proficiency for level -2. this made it so that you got your first +1 at level 3, then you get your +2 at level 10, and your final +3 wouldn't be until level 19. Made proficiency still relevant, while keeping non-proficient saves somewhat survivable at higher levels.

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The same thing could be done by making the save DCs start at 10 instead of 8, giving proficiency bonus to all saves, and giving +2 to the saves a class is currently proficient in like I do. But I guess it takes less modification of all the monsters and save DCs.

Woops, read that wrong. I still stand by giving proficiency to all saves. A prime stat is still going to grow from where they are at first compared to someone's dump stat. +5 to your dump stat Save will still suck at 17th level, it's just not laughably suck like having -1.

On a side note, Paladin's are even more OP than I previously realized. They are the only melee class that doesn't have to naturally roll near a 20 to succeed against a hold person cast by a high level caster.

FrogReaver said:

I fighter with 8 wisdom vs a level 1 wizard needs a 14 to pass. That seems reasonable to me for someone with no proficiency and a bad save. It's ridiculous that that 14 to pass becomes a 20 to pass by end game.

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It's worth noting that it could be vs the same 1st-level spell, cast with a 1st-level slot, by the same wizard, now that they're both 20th.