D&D 5E Saving Throws and non-proficiency

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

FrogReaver said:
A fighter with 8 wisdom vs a max level wizard needs a 20 to pass.

Dont dump Wisdom?

That Fighter should be proficient in 3 saves really (assuming feats) and should also (all things being equal) have the best Stats in the game (more ASI) and has Indomitable (for a re-roll).

And in most cases he gets another save every round to break whatever effect was used on him.

Int saves are the main culprit, but they're rare and when they DO crop up, it gives the Wizards and Rogues something to be happy about.

FrogReaver · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Dont dump Wisdom?

At most I can get +5 from wisdom assuming I neglect 2 of str, dex, con. I still need a 14+ to pass vs a high level wizard and it took a ton of ASI's to get to that point. For that much investment the benefit isn't enough.

That Fighter should be proficient in 3 saves really (assuming feats)

I don't play with feats.

and should also (all things being equal) have the best Stats in the game (more ASI) and has Indomitable (for a re-roll).

Rerolls don't really help when you need nearly a 20 to pass.
He gets 2 more ASI's than most other characters. at most he can have +2 more stat bonus to a single stat than any other PC in the game. That's really what you are suggesting make him good at saves? That's laughable.

And in most cases he gets another save every round to break whatever effect was used on him.

Doesn't help much when your that abysmal at making the save in the first place.

Int saves are the main culprit, but they're rare and when they DO crop up, it gives the Wizards and Rogues something to be happy about.

Oh great point. Even if I shore up wisdom, my int or cha saves will be in the nearly 20 to pass boat....

The Old Crow · Jul 12, 2019

Xeviat said:
I'm going to apply proficiency bonus to all saves, change class proficiency save bonuses into flat +2 bonuses, and raise the Save DC math to 10+modifiers. Everyone will thus be the same at first level, but bad saves will scale far better. The differences in ability scores will still provide differences in saves.

This also makes monsters not have abismal saves at higher CRs.

I am curious why you didn't keep the 8 DC and proficient saves the same, and give non-proficient saves a bonus of proficiency - 2 (+1 at 5th, +2 at 9th, +3 at 13th, and +4 at 17th)? Am I missing something with the math?

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

FrogReaver said:
At most I can get +5 from wisdom assuming I neglect 2 of str, dex, con. I still need a 14+ to pass vs a high level wizard and it took a ton of ASI's to get to that point. For that much investment the benefit isn't enough.

Str 15 (16), Con 13 (14), Dex 10 (11), Int 11 (12), Wis 13 (14), Cha 11 (12) = 27 points.

2 x ASI (Strength). 1 x ASI in Int and Cha and 2 x ASI in Con.

Str 20, Con 18, Dex 11, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14.

Saves @ 20th = Str +11, Dex +0, Con +10, Int, Wis and Cha +2 (3 x re-rolls per day)

He gets 2 more ASI's than most other characters. at most he can have +2 more stat bonus to a single stat than any other PC in the game. That's really what you are suggesting make him good at saves? That's laughable.

Those ASI (plus indomitable) help his saves.

Oh great point. Even if I shore up wisdom, my int or cha saves will be in the nearly 20 to pass boat....

The above stat line needs a 17+ to pass a Charisma, Wisdom or Int save (DC 19). A 20 percent chance per roll, with 3 x re-rolls allowed, and a further save allowed every singe round from there after (also with re-rolls).

I dont play with feats

Do you play with Clerics, Paladins or Bards?

If so, hanging out near the Paladin gets you +1-5 to saves. An active Bless spell grants you +1d4 to all saves. Bardic inspiration will get you +1d[6-12] to a save. Warding bond adds another +1 to saves (and gives you resistance to damage).

Anything that sticks can be removed with a restoration spell (lesser or greater) or dispel magic or calm emotions.

This is a team game remember; you're not supposed to be good at all saves and be a damage powerhouse. Monks are proficient in all saves (with a re-roll) at 14th but they dont come near the at will damage you deal. Strengths come with weaknesses.

If you're deeply worried about Saves, dip 2 levels in War Wizard. Gain an at will +4 to a Saving throw as a reaction.

5ekyu · Jul 12, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Realized most of what I said was covered in another post. ?

FrogReaver · Jul 12, 2019

Or or we can fix the game. Because as illustrated - how bad a fighter becomes at saves over the course of the game - even with investment is ridiculous

Flamestrike said:
Str 15 (16), Con 13 (14), Dex 10 (11), Int 11 (12), Wis 13 (14), Cha 11 (12) = 27 points.

2 x ASI (Strength). 1 x ASI in Int and Cha and 2 x ASI in Con.

Str 20, Con 18, Dex 11, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14.

Saves @ 20th = Str +11, Dex +0, Con +10, Int, Wis and Cha +2 (3 x re-rolls per day)

Those ASI (plus indomitable) help his saves.

The above stat line needs a 17+ to pass a Charisma, Wisdom or Int save (DC 19). A 20 percent chance per roll, with 3 x re-rolls allowed, and a further save allowed every singe round from there after (also with re-rolls).

Do you play with Clerics, Paladins or Bards?

If so, hanging out near the Paladin gets you +1-5 to saves. An active Bless spell grants you +1d4 to all saves. Bardic inspiration will get you +1d[6-12] to a save. Warding bond adds another +1 to saves (and gives you resistance to damage).

Anything that sticks can be removed with a restoration spell (lesser or greater) or dispel magic or calm emotions.

This is a team game remember; you're not supposed to be good at all saves and be a damage powerhouse. Monks are proficient in all saves (with a re-roll) at 14th but they dont come near the at will damage you deal. Strengths come with weaknesses.

If you're deeply worried about Saves, dip 2 levels in War Wizard. Gain an at will +4 to a Saving throw as a reaction.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Or or we can fix the game. Because as illustrated - how bad a fighter becomes at saves over the course of the game - even with investment is ridiculous

Seriously mate, it's not.

I've DM'd games to beyond 20th level (half a dozen epic boons per PC and save DC's of 26 getting tossed about).

What I can tell you is between:

1) Bless spell
2) Paladins
3) Bardic inspiration
4) Resilient feat
5) Various class features/ racial features on most classes that boost saves such as (Divine Soul's Favored of the Gods, War Wizard reaction for +4 - then another +2 when concentrating, Bladedancers +Int to Con, Rogues Slippery Mind and the equivalent for Samurai and Gloomstalkers, Monks Diamond Soul and multiple immunities, Indomitable for Fighters, Barbarian flat out immunity to fear and advantage on Strength and Dex saves, Monster Hunter ranger, Gnomes + Yuanti advantage vs magic, Elves vs Charm, Dwarves vs Poison etc etc etc etc) boosting clutch saves or a broad range of saves.
6) Spells to either stop the effect (counter-spell) or remove/ grant immunity to it (dispel magic, mind blank, heroes feast, calm emotions, restoration, invisibility and darkness etc) or give save buffs (Warding bond).
7) Advantage from inspiration
8) Almost all save or suck effects granting a re-roll each round to break free,

It's not an issue.

I mean yeah; if you had a party of wholly Champion Fighters, you're going to crush encounters that hit you with Con and Str saves, and get kerb-stomped by Illithids spamming Int saves and the like.

But normally when the Illithids rock up, the Wizard and Rogue make thier saves, as does one other PC with the assistance of a bardic inspiration or a bless spell or the like, and the rest are only shut down for a round or two at most before shaking it off.

Tony Vargas · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
The above stat line needs a 17+ to pass a Charisma, Wisdom or Int save (DC 19).

And at 1st he was passing such saves on an 11. He's gotten worse. That's the point.

Even if you grant him proficiency, he still gets worse, just more slowly.

I do not understand the resistance to saves improving, or at least treading water. In the classic game, saves got /better/ as you leveled, even net of penalties inflicted by very high level spells & monsters. 3e *good* saves and 4e 'Defenses' could manage to tread water over time (though bad saves and tertiary-stat defenses likely fell behind, and not even optimized good saves could keep up with optimized DCs in 3e).

In 5e, only a proficient save in your primary stat even treads water, everything else gets worse relative to the DCs you'll face. The rationalization for that, I suppose, is that SoDs are more or less gone (which was also the case in 4e, when at least 3 out of 4 of your defenses probably kept up - and keeping up all 4 was doable).
It's not much of an excuse, honestly.

Xeviat · Jul 12, 2019

The Old Crow said:
I am curious why you didn't keep the 8 DC and proficient saves the same, and give non-proficient saves a bonus of proficiency - 2 (+1 at 5th, +2 at 9th, +3 at 13th, and +4 at 17th)? Am I missing something with the math?

I just feel like the DCs should have been 10+modifiers. It also puts saves onto the same track as skill check averages and helps with the expanded skill system I'm working on.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
And at 1st he was passing such saves on an 11. He's gotten worse. That's the point.

He hasnt gotten 'worse'. Against the same caster or effect, he's just as good (in fact he's now better, thanks to increasing his Ability scores or Using feats for Resilient or Lucky, and gaining re-rolls via Indomitable).

He hasnt even gotten 'worse' at saving against spells cast by 20th level Archmages. He's always sucked at saving against those guys. At 1st level he needed a 19+. He still needs a 19+ (he just gets a re-roll now). Also even should he fail a save now against a damaging effect, it hardly hurts him (where-as at 1st level it would have left a pile of ash even if he made the save).

If I was going to add + 1/2 proficiency to saves, I would do it only for the Champion Fighter, as part of the survivor ability.

That's what I did in my games, plus I also added a few new Battlemaster manouvers (Moment of perfect mind - reaction - add Sup dice to one Int, Wis or Cha save before you know if it passed or failed, and Mind over Body - same deal but to Str, Con and Dex saves).

I converted a lot of ToB manouvers into BM manouvers.

Now Champions get a fixed small static bonus to all saves at high level as a nice capstone (in keeping with the flavor of the class, the history of Fighters getting good saves, and to make them more attractive) and Battlemasters gain more flexibility with their manouvers, and I can bring ToB feel to my 5E games (and I loved ToB).