D&D General Science in D&D

Celebrim

Legend
There used to be discussions about converting components to energy to power evocation spells. The problem is that this would be the equivalent of having a tac-nuke in your hand. The energy release would so far exceed the spell requirements that the overflow would vaporize you.

Which assumes that the strong nuclear force and the speed of light are the same in the hypothetical universe, which they wouldn't necessarily be. (Or for that matter than the material components are fully converted to energy.) We have no theory that requires fundamental constants to be equal. We have no idea why they are what they are in this universe. Maybe the speed of light in the D&D universe is only 500 km per second.

And how about summoning animals?

There is a whole queue of them in the Beastlands eagerly waiting a chance to get to the material world and taste some blood.

How do Dragon's fly? (Their aerodynamics and mass to wing-surface makes the idea ludicrous.)

Earth spirits are scared of them and so make little attempt to constrain them. Also, again, kinetic energy is linear with velocity, not the square of it.

Where does the granite in a Wall of Stone come from?

Elemental Plane of Earth.

How does a person in a Time Stop move without burning up from air resistance? (Spell says that it speeds the caster up to the point that the world seems frozen in time.)

Heat is caloric, not converted energy. Hence, an Elemental Plane of Fire.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
You can make sciencey sounding noise, but since there's no way to actually do any of those things...

There used to be discussions about converting components to energy to power evocation spells. The problem is that this would be the equivalent of having a tac-nuke in your hand. The energy release would so far exceed the spell requirements that the overflow would vaporize you.

Bending space-time to Teleport? Hmmm, sounds a lot like Einstein's theory about gravity, that mass distorts space-time, which how/why it can propagate faster than the speed of light. So that would mean that Teleport creates a mini-black hole?

And how about summoning animals? How do Dragon's fly? (Their aerodynamics and mass to wing-surface makes the idea ludicrous.) Where does the granite in a Wall of Stone come from? How does a person in a Time Stop move without burning up from air resistance? (Spell says that it speeds the caster up to the point that the world seems frozen in time.) And, and, and... The list goes on.

To paraphrase Varsuvius (Wizard from Order of the Stick comic), "I've spent years learning how to tell the laws of physics to sit down, shut up and do what they're told". Possibly the best description of magic I've ever heard. :)

True, very true. :)

I can explain Burning Hands as the channeling of thermal energy at high-density in conical frame in the 3d dimension, but this doesn't really mean anything.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
I'm not going to get into a spell by spell debate. My points were simply to show that, while we can make "sciencey noise" about magic and spells, the fact remains that that's all they are. Could we use heat transference to explain fire spells? Sure. Interdimensional shift to explain summoning and conjurations? Okay. Now, how does wriggling fingers and chanting words make that happen? And why, when someone else wriggles their fingers the same way and chants the same words, why don't they get the same effect?

Sciencey noise, however sciencey it may be, is still just noise. In game there's a skill called Spellcraft (at least in 3.* and Pathfinder), which represents the character's understanding of magical theory. Applied Physics probably falls under some other skill in the D20 Modern source book. They're separate things.

Trying to come up with a clever closer, something about "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", but the truth is that it's only the people who haven't studied it that can't tell the difference.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
We're making the same sciencey noise about everything in Star Wars and Star Trek, so there's that

The answer to all the questions in the OP is twofold, the first answer is Arthur C Clarke, and second is do what tho wilt is the extent of the law. That said, unless you want to change the fundamental drive of humans (humanoids?) to figure stuff out, there would be the equivalent of science in most settings, at some level or other, just based on a different physics. For example, that very idea is what made Eberron such a compelling setting - it's not impossible and actually often fruitful to combine the two ideas.
[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] - if it doesn't exist you can't have studied it, at which point we're back to ACC. You picked the right closer.:cool:
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
Thanks.

Our exchange seems to have come full circle: What passes for science in a magical setting? Chemistry becomes Alchemy. Physics becomes meta-physics. Astronomy becomes astrology.

And as we've come full circle, geometry seems appropriate, specifically a tangent: While Astrology and zodiac signs are casually dismissed, recently scientists (the real thing) have determined that part of our personality may be influenced by the foods our mothers ate during gestation, and that those are determined by what's available/in season. And that, of course, means that it's tied to the seasons the pregnancy runs, and when it ends, i.e. the astrological sign we're born under. :)
 

Ath-kethin

Elder Thing
I have a homebrew world in which Lovecraftian Horrors From Beyond Space And Time (TM) invaded and the survivors fled underground, activated a massive magical reaction that hollowed out the planet and formed a "sun" in the middle that prevents the LHFBSAT(TM) from entering the newly hollow planet so civilizations reformed on the inner side of the planet's crust.

Real-world science is obviously important to my game.
 

Xaelvaen

Stuck in the 90s
How much science do you like in your D&D? For example:

Depends entirely on the campaign we're playing at the time. Currently, we're playing in a world that was incredibly high magic - where the stuff of the unseen wove through the very fabric of existence, from indoor waste disposal (disintegration) and plumbing, to lights and horseless carriages, and teleportation booths on city streets to help you get around town, or even from city to city, faster. Then the magic started to change, and a chaotic semi-liquid magic began to ooze from the Earth, corrupting everything it touched.

The people of this world scrambled to create a great magic and science hybrid innovation to stave off the magical blight, and failed. Now, they live in a society where magic is innately wild and difficult to control, and science has reigned supreme - obviously in this case, science is a very important structure to not only observe, but draw upon in the day to day lives of adventurers.

1. Do your monsters have *sigh* Lighting Blood, and are your snakes poisonous, rather than venomous?

I've had creatures with statically-charged bodily fluids, and snake-like constructs that would technically wield poison as opposed to venom. If this is a reference to something specific, however, I'm afraid I don't get it.


2. Is magic a kind of science? Is magic more than just the manipulation of particles through the generation of electric potential within the brain that couples with a force known as the Weave to produce effects on 3d-dimensional structures?

In the campaign mentioned above, magic was treated like a science, abused, and now is the most anti-scientific thing on the planet. The magical origins, however, were non-scientific to begin with - people just treated it as something more quantifiable, because they were an advanced society and believed everything should be quantified.


3. Are your worlds planets? Do they exist in solar systems with correct mass to radius, logical core composition, rational positioning, and mathematically accurate orbits?

My worlds are indeed planets, and there is often a theme of astrological entities involved in some way, shape, or form. They are not always accurate by the comparison of real-world orbits and gravitational pull, but they are precise enough as to give the characters in the world realism. This implies, of course, a character cares about such things at some point in the campaign - for if something is not asked, it is never to be answered.


4. How do the planes exist? Are they separate from normal reality? How is this so?

This may be my blasphemy moment. Most of my favorite worlds aren't 'planar' in your typical sense. I've never enjoyed the plane-hopping aspects of Dungeons and Dragons, perhaps a reason I never got into the lore of M:tG. This is not a statement that these are bad, or wrong things, merely that they've never been my cup of tea. In that vein, I usually keep a mystery about the planes and their workings, and make magic to transverse these planes ancient and equally mysterious. In the science-heavy world mentioned above, the planes are tangible places that can actually be walked to, if you know the right paths to take. Fiends live beneath the surface of the earth, accessible only by a cave deep within the Glacial Peaks of the north - and so forth.


5. Is your table of elements expanded to include metallic elements like adamantium and mithral? If so, how? If not, have you made metals like beryllium adamantium? Do you not worry about it at all?

Surprisingly, it has never come up. I have plenty of scientific-minded players, and their characters are often skilled in the same manners, but the table itself and all its components has just never come up in 20+ years of this group being together.

In summary, if we have the desire to play in a world where science matters, we do all the work to maintain our verisimilitude. Otherwise, it's a 'when we need it' nature.
 
Last edited:

Doug McCrae

Legend
Is magic a kind of science?

My current preferred interpretation* of D&D is that the world was safer and more controlled in the past but it suffered a collapse and there was a resurgence of both nature, personified by beings such as fey and giants, and anarchic or evil powers. In other words, it's post-apocalyptic. I think this is a good fit for both PC activity - exploring dangerous ruins looking for mysterious and powerful magic objects - and the prevalence of monsters in D&D worlds.

My interpretation of magic follows that of Vance's Dying Earth - magic was better understood in the past, possibly reaching the level of science - but this is no longer so. Current magical practitioners have a woefully incomplete understanding. They just know that when they undertake certain actions magical things happen, but they don't really know why.

How do the planes exist?

I have no idea. I'm not going to base the planes on m-theory or other theoretical physics, partly because I know very little about it.

I think that if you want to run a hard science fiction rpg, D&D would be a strange choice of system.

*Another interpretation I'd considered, probably just for one shots, would be to take the magic-as-technology aspect of D&D and run with it, mostly for comedic effect. I'd set it in a Waterdeep-style city with street lights lit by fire elementals, garbage disposed of by otyughs, alignment as a thing that is both real and accessible, the PCs continually getting raised from the dead, and so forth. It wouldn't be a science fictional what-would-it-be-like-if-magic-was-real? approach because I don't think it's possible to take such an approach to D&D due to the sheer kitchen sink strangeness of D&D worlds, not to mention the likely possibility that the rules only show us a fraction of the magic that exists in them.
 
Last edited:

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Which assumes that the strong nuclear force and the speed of light are the same in the hypothetical universe, which they wouldn't necessarily be. (Or for that matter than the material components are fully converted to energy.) We have no theory that requires fundamental constants to be equal. We have no idea why they are what they are in this universe. Maybe the speed of light in the D&D universe is only 500 km per second.

As a physicist, my advice: don't go there.

One of the big points we get to when we look at the fundamental constants is not just that "Hey, the physical constants are exactly what they are", but "Hey, if the physical constants change even a small bit, life (and even matter) as we know it ceases to exist." This is one answer to the question of "Why is the Universe exactly the way it is?" called the Anthropic Principle - if the Universe were much different, we couldn't exist in it to see it." What *sound* like small changes usually have large impacts.

If you cut the speed of light down to, say, 500 km/sec, is that relativistic effects become much, much stronger, to the point of likely being noticeable to normal people. When some player raises that point, you're forced to shuck and jive, and if they know physics better than you, you end up with your player quickly proving your world cannot exist as stated, as matter likely collapses in on itself or fails to become matter at all.

It is better to say, "Light... travels? What nonsense are you speaking now?" and thus avoid the whole question.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
*Another interpretation I'd considered, probably just for one shots, would be to take the magic-as-technology aspect of D&D and run with it, mostly for comedic effect. I'd set it in a Waterdeep-style city with street lights lit by fire elementals, garbage disposed of by otyughs, alignment as a thing that is both real and accessible
Vote Lawful Evil Party for 4 more years of safety and stability.
 

Remove ads

Top