OSR OSR Gripes

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
But I've never had a problem with devices, tomes, etc. showing up that increase stats. It feels much more like an in-fiction reward for adventuring than any sort of auto-increment system ever does.

Hmmmm I made up something called martial techniques effectively they were learnable if you could find a teacher and had the karma (sort of money in a different guise your teacher might send you on quest or task like Herakles was sent on to earn or prove your worth and gain the karma - insert more story beyond finding the teacher) for it, but under the hood they were pretty much the effects of magic items *with slightly different limits and advantages.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
We typically had many different games running concurrently, and would swap pcs in to different groups when it fit the narrative, such as when one group finished a given adventure. All pcs started at first level for us except for in the strangest, least usual of circumstances, so we always had more low level pcs available than higher level (we would start new pc groups all the time).
We don't start brand new groups very often but we're always reshuffling the lineups within the parties that are out there.

I'm sure I had dissatisfying characters, but the only one I especially remember was a ranger who... he just come off as a wanker when I started playing him. To me, I mean. I was actually glad when he died early on. Generally, though, I find every character I play enjoyable.
Yeah, sometimes a character visualizes better than it plays - I've had several of these over time, and I either retire them or get them killed off once I realize that whatever I had in mind just ain't gonna work.

The flip side, though, is when a character that really looks like it is going to work out gets snuffed early. Had some of those too. :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Select your spells right low intelligence doesn't matter. Do buffing or use spells that have no saves.
This assumes one can select the spells that end up in one's book.

In 1e you could pick a few spells (or have them rolled random) when starting out at 1st level, but after that it was all based on what you could find (via loot) or buy or swap with other PC MUs...and you had to roll to learn each one, with low intelligence making this roll more difficult.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
Rolled on the table in full view of everyone else?

I'll guess not.

Totally irrelevant. Most of the OS players/GMS/tables I know don't even seem to care or object. Which, I think, is part of what Celebrim and I find so confusing about the OSR movement. At least IME, the "hard core" character-funnel type play seems to be completely abandoned except for a small fraction of the community.

It goes beyond that - in old school much more so than new, there's always the underlying threat (or promise?) that some effect from some random table or randomly-generated device somewhere might completely change your character: alignment change, stat change, race or class change, etc.

Put another way, there's an overall greater level of unpredictability. Many of us find this a good thing.

That's fine by me. I wasn't negatively critiquing the idea of tables and that kind of randomness. I just think that there is something to the mental burden/cost of constant improvisation (or even authoring) that is alleviated by providing or utilizing such tables. I think its also part of the reason that list-free or list-light games like Fate, which is perfectly serviceable out-of-the-box are not as popular as games like D&D which come with pre-packaged lists of feats, spells, classes/abilities, etc. Developing your setting and world as you play isn't for everyone, and that's fine.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
This assumes one can select the spells that end up in one's book.

In 1e you could pick a few spells (or have them rolled random) when starting out at 1st level, but after that it was all based on what you could find (via loot) or buy or swap with other PC MUs...and you had to roll to learn each one, with low intelligence making this roll more difficult.

I was talking about 5E. Not clear in my post.

Basic things like finding spells, and xp for gp buff exploration pillar.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Totally irrelevant.
No, sadly, it's highly relevant: someone who cheats at char-gen is much more likely to cheat at other times. Best to nip it in the bud right from square one and have done with it.

Most of the OS players/GMS/tables I know don't even seem to care or object. Which, I think, is part of what Celebrim and I find so confusing about the OSR movement. At least IME, the "hard core" character-funnel type play seems to be completely abandoned except for a small fraction of the community.
Hardly the first time I've been in the minority... :)
 

Celebrim

Legend
Which, I think, is part of what Celebrim and I find so confusing about the OSR movement.

Let me clarify exactly why I find the OSR/OSRIC etc. movement so confusing.

1) It's a movement to recreate a specific set of rules yet the fans of the movement when discussing why they are fond of the game almost never reference actual rules, but instead reference ideas about play, encounter design, campaign design, and so forth that are not aspects of the rules - for example challenge, skillful play, randomness, using propositions highly specific to and interactive with the fiction, etc. And I'm on board with most of that but don't understand why you'd need those rules to do it. My 3e campaign, the players unwisely interacted with some radioactive ooze, and now one player has a talon for a hand and other player's hippogriff steeds has a mutated foot with an alien mouth on it. I didn't and don't need 1e rules to have 1e feel. It feels like the same effect could be achieved by producing supplements for modern editions on old school play style, encounter design, campaign design and so forth.

2) Some of the most successful and prominent OSR games don't actually have that 1e feel either. Instead, they are more like what TSR games might have felt like if instead of Tracy Hickman advocating for the comic book code in future TSR products, Anton LaVey had been an employee and recommended doubling down on the occult scare for the publicity. Now I get there are people who hear something like that and go 'cewwwl', but I don't see why you need a 1e rule set for that either. Why is grimdark such a thing in the OSR community?

3) To the extent that OSR champions will talk about rules at all and advocate for rules, typically what you'll hear from them is that what they like about the rules is that they don't use them. That is to say they'll say that the great thing about the old rules is that there are no rules and they can just make things up. And ok, that may be a preference thing, but at the same time it's not a rules thing either. No rules set is comprehensive and regardless of which edition you are playing, if you are doing your job as a DM and if the players are doing theirs, then you'll find yourself outside the rules needing to make rulings. In my 3e game I found myself running a combat where the players were racing mounts down a city street next to a runaway carriage that was being attacked by wights, where like an old western movie I had heroes jumping off horses to get on the carriage and try to stop it. This is not a situation which is explicitly covered by the rules as written in 3e or 1e, and so regardless of which system I was using there would have been a lot of rulings involved. However, I certainly know which system has more support for this sort of free form play, and it's not 1e AD&D, and that is so obviously true that I really wonder whether the old school fans of free form play do really in fact have as game as free form as my 3e based game, or whether it's more like the play I remember of 30 years ago where we pretty much stayed in our lanes and delved in dungeons. I mean staying in the lanes and delving the dungeons seems to be what the OSR games are selling as a selling point...

As far as actual rules go, there are a few things I miss from the 1e era:

a) XP for g.p.: This is the biggest surprise to me of all because back as a DM in the AD&D era I hated XP for g.p. because of the constraints it put on campaign design. The rules strongly encouraged leveling by getting rich, which meant that the PC's coffers tended to be overflowing or the PC's tended to die from the grind. To me it was like the training rules. I got why they worked that way, but that didn't stop me from tossing them out the window at the first opportunity because they got in the way of a fun story. But, now that they are gone and after some years of reflection I do miss them at times. Or rather, what I really miss is players being excited about finding loot. By and large, players in my game don't care about gold. They care about magic items, but gold because it isn't readily fungible to magic items (unlike some 3e games I presume) isn't something that they care much about. And that feels like a bit of a loss both in realism, game play, and fun.

b) Weapon vs. AC modifiers: The rule that I missed almost immediately in 3e play is one which I doubt any OSR games actually implement and which few tables at the time used. But if it wouldn't make the game more complex than it is, I'd bring it back in a heart beat.

c) Exponential XP progression: Of the things I miss this is the one which I'm most likely to actually incorporate in my rules set in the future. I'm convinced that it is superior to linear XP progression to level having played with both. However, changing the rules so that exponential will work well (especially in absence of the fudge factor of treasure for XP) will be a huge undertaking and so far I haven't attempted it. I miss the way exponential XP supported henchmen, supported starting new characters from 1st level if you wanted to go that route, and the way it created natural demographics if you made assumptions about NPC's gaining XP over time.

But that is literally it. Everything else that I've got now is the same 1e underlying 6 attribute class based chargen with the strong D20 fortune engine, only the chasis that has been built around that classic engine is so much better in every respect to what was built around it back in the day. It's clearer. It's fairer. It's more balanced. It handles difficulty cleanly. It supports more open play better. It's more complete. It supports more diverse character concepts. And perhaps most of all, it's got 10 years of house rules built around it to make it play the way I want it to play.

One of the few AD&D DM's I encountered that I thought I understood was one like me that I had built up a body of house rules and porting away from that and what he was comfortable with he said was too much work. But then, at the time he wasn't part of OSR. He was just a DM that had been running games the same way for decades. Only since then, he's taken up LotFP, and I'm like, "What?!?!? Why? I thought you were completely comfortable with your house rules and couldn't change."

At some level I think I do get it: "How you think about a game and how you prepare to play is at least as important as the rules." And I think for most people they have to have a rules change in order to change how they think about the game and the habits that they bring to the table. And that sort of makes sense that your habits would get attached to a particular context. But then I get in a discussion with OSR people about the rules, and they are all like, "If you don't like the rules, it's because you aren't a capable enough DM/player. Using the old rules requires skill and imagination, you see." and it's all so totally not self-aware.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
Let me clarify exactly why I find the OSR/OSRIC etc. movement so confusing.

3) To the extent that OSR champions will talk about rules at all and advocate for rules, typically what you'll hear from them is that what they like about the rules is that they don't use them. That is to say they'll say that the great thing about the old rules is that there are no rules and they can just make things up. And ok, that may be a preference thing, but at the same time it's not a rules thing either. No rules set is comprehensive and regardless of which edition you are playing, if you are doing your job as a DM and if the players are doing theirs, then you'll find yourself outside the rules needing to make rulings.

I don't know how prevalent this is, but...

I know a DM who is a big OSR booster. When I asked him a question much like this his response was basically that "modern" game engines had rules for everything baked in in one of two ways - either there is an explict rule for it that the players know because it's in the player-facing rulebook, or because the game uses a "core mechanic" for task resolution that the players expect you to use to resolve tasks. So the DM cannot feel as free to make stuff up because the players are expecting you to play by the rules for everything.

In contrast, AD&D has no single core mechanic for task resolution, so players should have no expectation of consistency in that way - consistent for how the DM is doing things from session to session, sure, but if the DM decides to make you roll a d6 to find secret doors you aren't going to get a player saying "hey, you're supposed to be letting me make a Perception check". Also AD&D hides rules from the players - the players aren't supposed to be going into the DMG and objecting because the DM isn't using the right rules for something - the DM gets to decide which systems they are using and which ones they aren't and the players are supposed to keep in their own lane.

As far as my friend is concerned D&D is supposed to give you rules for combat that he will scrupulously follow and that's it. Any rules for outside of combat are supposed to be "suggestions" that the DM can incorporate and ignore on their own judement. The more information the game gives to the players - via rules, skills, etc. - the more it ties his hands and the less he likes it. (This is also part of why we don't game with each other - we have diametrically opposing views on player collaboration at the table and neither of us enjoys the others' preferred style of play. He also likes everyone to start out as a level-0 dirtfarmer and earn their fun through dozens of character deaths before you finally get the right kind of luck to get someone to survive to a level where you have enough hit points to get through a fight, which is a style of play I literally no longer have time for.)
 

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