OSR OSR Gripes

Tony Vargas

Legend
Does the existence of rules or mechanics -stop- GM A from creating their own house rules? I don't see why it would...
Nothing can stop a DM from house ruling, or, y'know, just running a different system, but a system might not present as much perceived need or opportunity to do so.

And, a system can set the stage for players to enthusiastically accept or violently resist outright house-rules or even any deviation from RAW orthodoxy.

IN post 2e games, GM A is as free as ever to house rule, but GM B is also accommodated within this system, right? Doesn't that make it a better system (preferences aside)?
Objectively, sure, but when are these things ever objective?

Subjectively, DM A will feel constrained by a more technically consistent, balanced, clear, and/or polished susyem; subjectively his players may feel more comfortable with and invested in that system, and resist changing or overruling it.

Its not even as simple as good systems are bad and bad systems are good (though that's a claim with some solid history behind it), DM A can be bent out of shape by technically-broken systems, too, if his players are invested in leveraging that brokenness in their favor, he has the perceived need to fix it, but faces resistance to his fixes, however well-intentioned they may be.

Not to let DM B off the hook, either. As long as a system doesnt crash and burn on him, he's inclined to leave systemic problems in place, even entirely unquestioned, and, if they're pointed out, rationalize excuses for them rather than come up with a fix, or even just adopt a well regarded alternative.

Heck, A&B are probably more common as hypothetical examples, possibly stuffed with straw, than as actual DMs. A lot of people who game actually /arent/ jerks.

I know, you could never tell from how we sound on-line. Hazard of the medium.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It's clear why some might want to go back to a previous version, based on preferences, nostalgia (not a bad thing!), or really, a bunch of reasons.

What's not clear to me is how people think games designed in the 70s are designed better than modern ones. I can understand preferring them, but, as [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] points out above, one would have to acknowledge the issues.

Like anything else involving design, things get better as time passes, whether it's tech, social issues, education techniques, sports, whatever...and that makes sense, because designers today have access to everything that's come before. They have seen what works, what gets in the way, what is worth keeping, what isn't...
And then far too often take all that information and somehow use it to make the wrong decision, often for reasons external to the actual process (in RPG design, it might be furthering of an idea just because it's yours even though objectively it's not the best; in the corporate world it might be choosing an objectively lesser design because it's more profitable...that sort of thing).

None of that means anything for preferences of course: some miss their NES and find modern games too complex to be worth the effort; some prefer desks in rows and rote learning, etc. We should be able to acknowledge that we sometimes prefer the not-best-designed-thing, though.
Question then becomes whether the definition of the "best-designed thing" also comes down to preference; and I'll posit that quite often it does, simply because for any given person the best design is usually the design that works best for that person.

Example: The NBA today has extremely efficient teams that have employed a lot of analytics to arrive at the conclusion that the shots worth taking are 3s and layups, and that's it. Like any innovation, lots of other teams followed suit, and it has resulted in a very different-looking game than the one I grew up watching. Do I prefer the new game or the old one? Not sure...there's aspects of the old way that I miss, for sure, but...I could never argue that the old game was more efficient in terms of basketball. Offensive schemes are designed better today, and a lot of it is access to greater information and data from the past.
And of course the result of that is that teams now mostly practice drive-and-kick plays for 3-pointers or plays designed to produce layups, meaning the data feeds on itself: plays that were previously only a bit less efficient (assuming accurate data!) become further and further less efficient as teams no longer practice them.

To say that the design is better from games back in the 70s, though...I don't see how that's possible, not with how design works in almost literally everything else.
The design is certainly both different and more complete now than it was then; but improvement in design since then certainly hasn't been constant or consistent and for many may well have reached its high-water mark at some point between the '70s and now...and those who think it largely reached that high-water mark* quite early on are those who are either driving the OSR or who - like me - really never left old-school at all.

* - though useful new ideas that can be incorporated into an old-school game or system are always welcome!
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
As far as design goes, is there a style of play from the OSR days that couldn't be replicated with modern games? It's not obvious...yes, the original games were deadlier, but even 5e can achieve that level of danger with the appropriate number of monsters and not changing the rules.

Can OSR games play in all styles that modern ones can without changing the rules? It doesn't seem so...
To make 5e play the least bit old-school you'd have to change some rules too, so it goes both ways.

There's many examples, but I'll just start and end with resting and recovery rules...
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
GM A likes to create their own house rules, it's their favourite aspect of rpg-ing. They love that pre-3e D&D has no universal mechanic and consists of many discrete subsystems. Their house rules won't have many knock-on effects and they won't look 'out of place'. In fact it's even to their advantage that many of the rules of AD&D 1e are crap - it means their house rules are better than the rules they are replacing and the players like them.

GM B hates to house rule. They want a complete system. They like games with a universal mechanic because it gives them a foundation to make rulings, something they're not all that comfortable or confident doing. GM B prefers the WotC editions of D&D.

These hypothetical GMs show that system preferences can be mutually exclusive. There's no way you could create one system that appeals to both GM A and GM B.
If 5e had really lived up to the degree of modularity promised during design and playtest it might actually have been nicely on its way to being just the system you posit is impossible: a functionally complete system that'll keep GM B happy but fully modular and kit-bashable such that GM A can mold it into the game she wants to run without too many unforeseen knock-ons.

But, that modularity ideal seems to have kinda dropped off the map somewhere between design and release. Sad, really.
 

Cleon

Legend
Returning to the original premise, my biggest gripe with Old School Renaissance games is the same as my gripe about most forms of roleplaying games - I haven't got to play them!

Due to lack of spare time, accessibility of gaming groups and scheduling difficulties I have not been gaming anywhere near as often as I would like to.

I've got all these OSR games sitting on my shelves or occupying hard drive space but so far have only got enjoyment from reading them instead of the "full experience" of actually playing or running the dang things.

The closest to Old-School gaming I've done recently is being a player in a Twilight 2000 derivative for a few sessions.



As for the games themselves, offhand I can't think of any gripes about particular mechanics - overall they're far better written and consistent than 1E AD&D rules ever were. I do have a bit of a gripe for some of campaign flavour of Lamentations of the Flame Princess which veers to far into "trying to be shocking" territory for my tastes, but that's a settings issue rather than a rules issue.
 

Cleon

Legend
People play what they want to play. Frankly I have no idea why anyone would EVER want to play 3.5 D&D. I find it baffling and illogical myself. That doesn't mean I would go into a thread about 3.5 and aggressively demand justifications for the fans of it. I'm sure they love it and would have answers that make sense to them on why it's the best game ever.

Of the forms of D&D I've had much playtime with 3.5 is my least favourite. It feels way too "prescriptive" compared to earlier editions and is way more unbalanced than later editions.

Which makes it ironic that it's also the edition I use/play/reference the most often.

As to why, the answer's simple - the OGL. Anyone can play it for free, so it was way easier finding 3.5 players. Most of those people have moved over to Pathfinder now though.

I still refer to the rules a lot more often than any other D&D edition - but that's because of the Creature Catalog being SRD-based rather than me currently being in a 3.5 game.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
To make 5e play the least bit old-school you'd have to change some rules too, so it goes both ways.

There's many examples, but I'll just start and end with resting and recovery rules...
Not a great point, actually. Old-school did actually have something akin to a 'short rest.' Play progressed in 10-min 'turns,' and if a combat didn't take 10 rounds, the balance was assumed to be spent resting, binding wounds and repairing gear. And, recovering hp & spells 'overnight' is a mere simplification of the complicated rules for recovering spells (requiring anything from 4 to 8 hrs of actual sleep, plus considerable time "memorizing") and the de-facto rate of healing accomplished /by/ memorizing, castings and re-memorizing full slates of healing spells. (That is, the rest & time rate of healing was moot.)
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Not a great point, actually. Old-school did actually have something akin to a 'short rest.'

No it didn't. Nothing in AD&D had rules where you regained spells from a short rest. Or had the ability to engage in non-magical hit point recovery in a short rest. And AD&D not only did not have heal back to full on a long rest, but you only got what? 1 hp back per day? If you think PCs just sat around for hours after hours casting/memorizing/recasting healing spells, then that tells me your experience with AD&D was limited to the goldbox PC video games. You didn't sit around for 38 hours doing that in an actual AD&D TTRPG while on an adventure (unless your DM paused the game world to allow their game to emulate said goldbox video games, but I never saw that once). Getting all hit points back after 8 hours in 5e is much different than the days of trying to do that in AD&D (even by your method). That difference is not "moot". The rate is significantly different.

Pointing out how you'd have to radically change the rest/recovery rules from 5e to OSR is a great point, because it's so radically different in how each edition handled them.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
No it didn't.
"Something akin to" is, I think, a pretty low bar. Admittedly, the balance of a 10 minute turn is a lot less resting than 5e's one hour. But it's still a rest, and it's still short. Some variant I vaguely recall even let that 'bind wounds' assumption heal d3 hps. Which, at 1st level, in particular, was nothing to sneeze at.

Nothing in AD&D had rules where you regained spells from a short rest.
Not spells in any standard class, now, but there were the occasional n/turn items or special abilities.
Or had the ability to engage in non-magical hit point recovery in a short rest. And AD&D not only did not have heal back to full on a long rest
Aside from the 'non magical' proviso, though, recovering hps between combat, and between forays into the dungeon /was/ a viable strategy, while waiting weeks to recover hps 'naturally' was pretty pointless. So the cadence was not that different, just the bookkeeping was more involved.

then that tells me your experience with AD&D was limited to the goldbox PC video games.
100% wrong. Never touched 'em. Actually played and ran AD&D, both eds, from '80 through '95. Sitting around resting for weeks to heal naturally, when your party /needed/ a cleric for both healing & turning, anyway, seemed pointless to every group I ever gamed with. I won't completely discount the possibility that there were groups out there who never had a cleric - actually, I won't challenge that claim when made by anonymous posters in an internet forum, because that'd be impolite.

You didn't sit around for 38 hours doing that in an actual AD&D TTRPG while on an adventure
Depends on how large & demanding the adventure you were grinding against was. If you couldn't tackle it in one 'day' and "went back to town" there was very little point in not doing a few re-memorization cycles to get everyone up to full hps and have a complete set of spells when you returned. It's not like there was a clear, universally applied limit on how often you could take that 4hr nap to get back low-level spells, for instance. Indeed, the classic game varied so much in how it was interpreted, modded, & actually run, that there's very little we /can/ authoritatively say about it.

That difference is not "moot". The rate is significantly different.
It's really not. 8hrs once in a 24hr period vs 4 up to 8 several times in succession, with extra memorization time is /mainly/ just less bookkeeping - but then, the bookkeeping was a lot more detailed in the olden days across the board. Accounting for spells, coin, gear, expendable items (from ammunition that you had a % chance of recovering, to potions to magic items with uncertain #s of charges), etc, all more detail than in the modern game.

Pointing out how you'd have to radically change the rest/recovery rules from 5e to OSR is a great point, because it's so radically different in how each edition handled them.
The meaningful impact is minimal. And, it's not like it's hard to change the rest/recovery period. The standard 8hr short rests, 1 week long variant, for instance, will get you a cadence not unlike the classic game, just still with less bookkeeping.

If you /want/ the greater detail, though, it impacts far more than just the rests, and I'd agree it makes very little sense to adapt a modern ed rather than dust off an older one & dig in.
 
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Not a great point, actually. Old-school did actually have something akin to a 'short rest.' Play progressed in 10-min 'turns,' and if a combat didn't take 10 rounds, the balance was assumed to be spent resting, binding wounds and repairing gear. And, recovering hp & spells 'overnight' is a mere simplification of the complicated rules for recovering spells (requiring anything from 4 to 8 hrs of actual sleep, plus considerable time "memorizing") and the de-facto rate of healing accomplished /by/ memorizing, castings and re-memorizing full slates of healing spells. (That is, the rest & time rate of healing was moot.)

There were no short rest equivalents in B/X or AD&D. Combats were, indeed, rounded up to the nearest turn, but there wasn’t any actual resource or hit point recovery involved.

The ‘rest period’ up to 10 minutes was more to maintain time keeping and to maintain the time pressure of a delve. There was also a 1 turn test period required for every 5 turns of activity. But these rest periods did not allow for recovery of resources.

Their intention is to keep the clock moving and keep the time pressure moving. Interesting enough, the one turn rest for every 5 actually coincides with torch duration, as well as with wandering encounter checks. They are kind of akin to blinds in poker, they maintain pressure on the game by forcing resource depletion.
 

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