D&D 5E Why don't everything scale by proficiency bonus?

Blue · Jul 10, 2019

Garthanos said:
Why ever would you imagine that? If I am up against the mayor's cellar door it is somehow scaled number? No that isn't how it works

The things you are overcoming need to be more awesome too not just bigger numbers ... so why arent my skills allowed to do the same thing after all in combat I am taking down a swarm of Orcs (a squadron) at high level Or in humongous Dragon with attacks.

Because the majority of the time, the rolls you make will be against foes. Count the rolls in any D&D session. Rolls in a single combat will vastly outnumber the number of rolls against static DCs.

Paul Farquhar · Jul 10, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Thats assuming you think there should even be a trade off to acquiring some general competency instead of having it be automatic with level.

I do. In order for someone to become really good at something, they have to dedicate most of their time and effort to that thing. Which means they have no time left to learn other things, which far from improving might even deteriorate.

Or they can choose to develop general competency at the expense of not being the best at any one thing.

I happen to think that adventurers acquire both specialization and some general competency at the same time.

I don't see any reason why that should be the case.

A Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none character who is quite good at a wide range of things but doesn't excel at any one should be a valid character choice. If you make all characters broadly competent you remove the option for a player to choose to create a character whose broad competence is their main feature.

Fenris-77 · Jul 10, 2019

[MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] - I can't think of a good reason why an adventurer should get a general bonus to every skill based on level. If you want general competency you can spread your ASIs out over the stats and you're good. Broad competence or specialization, your choice, plus a range of medium options in the middle, and it's already baked into the rules.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is what you're actually after a general competence that doesn't have to come at the expense of any optimizing for class stats and abilities? More pointedly, broad competence that doesn't impact your ability to get one or two stats to 20 by 20th level plus the feat tree necessary to max out your DPR?

Blue · Jul 10, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Right. Scaling in this context is just the level based scaling. The bonuses for You and the npc of the same level as you will just cancel out so effectively no advantage. But for different level foes it’s a big deal.

I strongly disagree with "for different level foes it’s a big deal". There are four level points over all 20 levels where IF you are crossing that gap, there's a +/-1 to the die.

In order to have a +/-2 a 5-8 level difference, which comes up exceedingly rarely.

So much of the time there's no mod since they are within the same 4-level grouping as you. Occasionally there's a +/-1.

FrogReaver said:
Of course this must be built upon a system where characters that are good at say swinging a long sword like a fighter get some additional benefit to swinging the long sword over a wizard of the same level

Yes, if you rebuilt the system you can make it do what you want. I had answered within the scope of just adding proficiency to everything with out existing rules; rewriting the system would need an answer in that context instead.

CleverNickName · Jul 10, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Should your character not always be better at nearly everything he does as a level 20 character than when he was a level 1 character.

I don't think so, no. I doubt that every master violinist is any better at flying a fighter jet than they were when they took their first music lesson. I doubt everyone who earns a blackbelt in karate is also getting medals in marksmanship and prizes in academia, either.

It makes sense to me that only certain features advance with proficiency.

Garthanos · Jul 10, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
So you're advocating for an ASI and a feat at each current ASI step? That's a huge power boost for characters, way way more than just giving out some additional skills. That doesn't make it a bad idea, but it's really high impact, especially when you're talking about the core feats that govern combat and spell casting (GWM, SS, EA, WC, etc)

That is probably my goal, Characters feel much less heroic scale in 5e than in the previous edition (exception maybe being spell casters as they level) where yes you got both attribute advancement and feats and powers and they didnt interfere with one another, everyone had action points similar to an action surge every other fight and second wind and so on. (the feats were lower impact feats that let you fine tune more but there was not competition between the two choices. )

Fenris-77 · Jul 10, 2019

Lots of the people who earn blackbelts in Karate also can't really even do Karate, so there's that. :heh:

I think there's some solid opinion here showing that people would like the option to add new skills as characters level, rather than having to spend portions of ASI advancement to up the connected stat. Really it's just a matter of deciding how one wants to accomplish that in a given campaign.

Fenris-77 · Jul 10, 2019

Garthanos said:
That is probably my goal, Characters feel much less heroic scale in 5e than in the previous edition (exception maybe being spell casters as they level) where yes you got both attribute advancement and feats and powers and they didnt interfere with one another, everyone had action points similar to an action surge every other fight and second wind and so on. (the feats were lower impact feats that let you fine tune more but there was not competition between the two choices. )

If you pair a feat with every ASI I don't think you'll run into balance issues between characters and they certainly will feel more heroic. You will have to adjust challenge rating for monsters, but that's probably a price you're more than willing to pay. In you shoes I might also look at taking some of the miscellaneous class abilities and re-branding them as feats to add to the mix. Stuff like unarmored defense, danger sense, expertise, that sort of thing. Maybe not those specifically, but something. There's been some solid discussion on the board about splitting some powerful feats in half and removing the stat increase from others to balance them all out, which is something else you could look at for what you want to do.

Garthanos · Jul 10, 2019

dnd4vr said:
That being said (from above), characters do get better because, while some challenges scale many don't.

At 10th-level, you might be fighting a monster that would have demolished you when you were 1st, but you might also be mopping the floor with its orc-henchmen which pose little threat to you now.

I was asking him why he is imagining that the mayors cellar door is leveling up to match the characters its an intentional silliness that was never advanced by the game just people wanting to diss it.... when the advancing numbers are about what actually challenges you and considered significant to the action, they are where the story tension comes from even if you have background elements that help you feel the awesome.

The ogre who could knock you around before is now too desparate to do big moves and goes down with one stroke when you are high level.

Garthanos · Jul 10, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
If you pair a feat with every ASI I don't think you'll run into balance issues between characters and they certainly will feel more heroic. You will have to adjust challenge rating for monsters, but that's probably a price you're more than willing to pay.

Yes monsters seem to need more interesting moves for the most part anyway.

Fenris-77 said:
In you shoes I might also look at taking some of the miscellaneous class abilities and re-branding them as feats to add to the mix.

Making character design more flexible, yes?

Fenris-77 said:
Stuff like unarmored defense, danger sense, expertise, that sort of thing. Maybe not those specifically, but something. There's been some solid discussion on the board about splitting some powerful feats in half and removing the stat increase from others to balance them all out, which is something else you could look at for what you want to do.

Thanks that does sound interesting.