D&D 5E Fighting With Style, Fighting Styles as Level 1 subclass choices

doctorbadwolf · Jul 13, 2019

Mistwell said:
Not a fan of your Eldritch Knight option. I agree they could use something though. Maybe choose one wizard cantrip, and you're able to cast it a number of times a day equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum one)?

I don’t think that getting a theoretically equal option to use in place of using your weapon is a good way to go for a Fighting Style. Adding elemental damage, or simply making your attack deal elemental damage and provide a bonus to the next attack that deals that damage, or something vaguely in that wheelhouse, is both more fitting thematically, and mechanically distinct from existing options.

I might settle for granting Green Flame Blade and the ability to change elemental damage type between Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, and Thunder, on weapon takes that benefit from a spell or cantrip effect.

Xeviat said:
How much do you value a fighting style? It's not worth a whole feat. +2 to damage is kinda worth +2 to hit. +2 attack stat is +1 to hit, damage, saves, checks, and some extra stuff. It's maybe half a feat.

Magic Initiate gives 2 cantrips and 1 1st level spell slot. So giving 2 cantrips and more stuff would be worth more than Fighting Style.

Exactly. While I think Magic Initiate could be a bigger feat without being overpowered, having 2 cantrips isn’t power neutral. Having Firebolt and Booming Blade available is a power increase.

But also, and maybe more importantly, adding something that is at odds with the attack action is a bad strategy for a fighting style, IMO.

Mistwell · Jul 13, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I don’t think that getting a theoretically equal option to use in place of using your weapon is a good way to go for a Fighting Style. Adding elemental damage, or simply making your attack deal elemental damage and provide a bonus to the next attack that deals that damage, or something vaguely in that wheelhouse, is both more fitting thematically, and mechanically distinct from existing options.

You're combat obsessed man. I know number crunching is fun and all, but I didn't say a word about an attack cantrip. I said ANY wizard cantrip. Personally I'd grab Minor Illusion or Prestidigitation. Far more utility and spell casting flavor than "add more or different damage".

jmartkdr · Jul 13, 2019

I'm in favor of a fighting style that nets one or two weapon cantrips. I might even call out the SCAG cantrips as the only options. It's good, and thematic, but not something that immediately comes across as the best option. Downside is it requires a specific book and has the limitations of those cantrips (no archery, no reach). This might be solvable by adding a couple extra cantrips, or tweaking how the existing ones are worded.

+1d4 elemental is alright, but unless it's limited to weapon types is flatly better than dueling. Making it X/day makes it flatly worse than dueling by a wide margin.

Xeviat · Jul 13, 2019

jmartkdr said:
I'm in favor of a fighting style that nets one or two weapon cantrips. I might even call out the SCAG cantrips as the only options. It's good, and thematic, but not something that immediately comes across as the best option. Downside is it requires a specific book and has the limitations of those cantrips (no archery, no reach). This might be solvable by adding a couple extra cantrips, or tweaking how the existing ones are worded.

+1d4 elemental is alright, but unless it's limited to weapon types is flatly better than dueling. Making it X/day makes it flatly worse than dueling by a wide margin.

Giving out the weapon cantrips at first level would only weaken the EK in the long run; they're going to get those at 3rd level anyway. You want something that directly compares to the existing fighting styles I think.

I say try this:

Fighting Style: Eldritch Knight (Prerequisite: Arcana Skill)
While wielding a one-handed weapon, and nothing in your off hand, you can use a bonus action to cause your weapon to be sheathed in elemental energy. Choose acid, cold, electricity, fire, or thunder. Your weapon deals +1d6 damage of that type. This ends if you sheath the weapon, let go of it, or carry anything in your other hand other than an implement or spell components.

What does this do? It gives the EK a reason to keep a hand empty for spellcasting. It makes them deal damage comparable to great weapon fighting (1d8+1d6 is 8, 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s is 8.33). Maybe we'd want 1d4, so it does less damage, since it has the chance of dealing double damage against vulnerable targets.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 13, 2019

Mistwell said:
You're combat obsessed man. I know number crunching is fun and all, but I didn't say a word about an attack cantrip. I said ANY wizard cantrip. Personally I'd grab Minor Illusion or Prestidigitation. Far more utility and spell casting flavor than "add more or different damage".

Eh, no. It’s a Fighting Style. Viewing it through the lense or combat isn’t “combat obsessed”, it’s just the rational way to view it. It’s a combat feature.

Mistwell · Jul 13, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Eh, no. It’s a Fighting Style. Viewing it through the lense or combat isn’t “combat obsessed”, it’s just the rational way to view it. It’s a combat feature.

Except you're attempting to use the tool of "fighting style" for something it was not originally intended to represent, "subclass type". If you're going to use the tool for a new application, then it makes less rational sense to restrict it to the original theme of "fighting style" as you've already ditched that restriction. Eldritch Knights are magical fighters who start with no magic and all fighter. Allowing them to pick a cantrip which emphasizes MAGIC as opposes to emphasizes FIGHTING makes sense.

Are you really arguing you would not allow an Eldritch Knight under your proposed system to choose minor image as their cantrip because it's "not combat oriented enough"? Even though it can do more in combat than most attack cantrips, depending on the situation? In combat, minor illusion can provide any of the following: a Blockade, Distraction, Alternate Target, Intimidation, and Obscurement. Those benefits (usually obsuration) often outweigh a bit of extra or different damage for combat purposes. You'd disallow that because your conception of "fighting style" requires damage? That seems far too narrow a concept.

jmartkdr · Jul 13, 2019

Xeviat said:
Giving out the weapon cantrips at first level would only weaken the EK in the long run; they're going to get those at 3rd level anyway. You want something that directly compares to the existing fighting styles I think.

I say try this:

Fighting Style: Eldritch Knight (Prerequisite: Arcana Skill)
While wielding a one-handed weapon, and nothing in your off hand, you can use a bonus action to cause your weapon to be sheathed in elemental energy. Choose acid, cold, electricity, fire, or thunder. Your weapon deals +1d6 damage of that type. This ends if you sheath the weapon, let go of it, or carry anything in your other hand other than an implement or spell components.

What does this do? It gives the EK a reason to keep a hand empty for spellcasting. It makes them deal damage comparable to great weapon fighting (1d8+1d6 is 8, 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s is 8.33). Maybe we'd want 1d4, so it does less damage, since it has the chance of dealing double damage against vulnerable targets.

Not a bad idea - certianly gives a rseason to do some actual Flynning (something the game currently lacks), but I'm not sure I'd want to really tie one-handed weapons to being a gish that strongly.

EDIT: adding some thoughts:

I could see reducing the fighting style to only one cantrip - that should be enough to feel a little gishy.

One of the issues with using fighting styles for this is that not only fighters get styles - you'd need to think about rangers and paladins at some point as well.

And lastly, I'm ambivalent about the whole idea because in all honesty I feel EK should just be its own class (the legendary arcane half-caster) and if you do that most of this thread becomes moot.

So with that said, going back to OP's premise - what about a mounted combat style? Something that makes the horse a little tougher seems like the best way to approach that. Samurai getting whatever weapon seems fine, and arcane archer is kinda stuck with archery unless you remove the "archer" part.

Xeviat · Jul 13, 2019

cbwjm said:
I feel like every class should gain an archetype at level 1. The rogue scout or valour bard are some of the archetypes that annoy me the most. I feel like rogue could have had 1st level archetypes that tied things like thieves tools and thieves cant to the archetype so that I can play a scout without either of those but instead have an additional language and maybe herbalism kit of survival as an archetype skill. Valour bard I'd like to be able to start out with battleaxe, chain shirt, and shield at level 1.

My only "complaint" would be how it might interact with multiclassing, but enough classes start with their archetype that it's kind of half in there as it is. This could be good for the game, but it would take some work to squeeze in because some classes don't have much room at first level for much.

Feel like taking this to a different thread?

Xeviat · Jul 13, 2019

jmartkdr said:
Not a bad idea - certianly gives a rseason to do some actual Flynning (something the game currently lacks), but I'm not sure I'd want to really tie one-handed weapons to being a gish that strongly.

In my games, I've offered a +2 attack bonus if you use 1 weapon and keep an empty off-hand. My justification is the difference in stances between sword and shield fighting (shield forward), and rapier fencing styles (sword-arm forward). I ran the numbers and it creates an interesting choice for the Rogue; 1 handed rapier for +2 to hit and +1 damage, or 2 shortswords for extra chances to land sneak attack. The shortswords still came away ahead in damage, but the rapier wielder has their bonus action free for cunning action.

If that feels too good, then make a "dualist" style for the combat styles for +2 to hit when your off-hand is not wielding a weapon or a shield. I think it would help out the EK a lot (though I tend to have their weapon bond allow them to use their weapon as an implement, so I don't have to worry about the empty hand for somatic components; but an empty hand fighting style would be better for that).

jmartkdr · Jul 13, 2019

Xeviat said:
In my games, I've offered a +2 attack bonus if you use 1 weapon and keep an empty off-hand. My justification is the difference in stances between sword and shield fighting (shield forward), and rapier fencing styles (sword-arm forward). I ran the numbers and it creates an interesting choice for the Rogue; 1 handed rapier for +2 to hit and +1 damage, or 2 shortswords for extra chances to land sneak attack. The shortswords still came away ahead in damage, but the rapier wielder has their bonus action free for cunning action.

If that feels too good, then make a "dualist" style for the combat styles for +2 to hit when your off-hand is not wielding a weapon or a shield. I think it would help out the EK a lot (though I tend to have their weapon bond allow them to use their weapon as an implement, so I don't have to worry about the empty hand for somatic components; but an empty hand fighting style would be better for that).

Oooo I like that.