D&D 5E Different Paths: Shadow Dancer Rogue

I’m interested in looking at alternate paths to certain archetypes, concepts, etc in 5e. Things like some different flavors of assassin, or trick shooter or fancy footwork duelist that isn’t a battlemaster, or even just things like a paladin archer, or a weapon focused Druid.

Today, I’m going to explore the idea of a Shadowdancer Rogue. Obviously, this is not an entirely unsupported idea in 5e, but I often find myself looking at the shadow monk, and not wanting to deal with all the monk stuff that comes with it, and I think there is room for a very different approach in the rogue.

So, some goals, and clarification.

Clarification: This not a thread wherein I’m asking if you think I should build this, if the game needs it, etc. I am operating under the assumption that this is a good goal, and I’m just not interested in challenges to the premise. This is a thread about how to do it.

Goals:

Thematically, we want a character who can be one with shadow, who is supernaturally graceful, swift, and able to manipulate shadow around themselves.

Mechanically, I’d like to see different abilities and benefits than the Shadow Monk, and be balanced against the Arcane Trickster.

Ideas thus far, in very rough form: note, these are not organized by level. This is just a rough cut of what sorts of abilities I’d want if playing a shadowdancer rogue.

movement: benefits with speed, jumping, and acrobatics while in shadow. Probably want some benefit always, but greater in shadow. Stuff like +5 speed and jump distance, can use Dex for jump distance in shadow, and gain extra +10 speed in shadow. OR, small bonuses always, and the use of spells while in shadow, like jump and longstrider. Could be more powerful or gain power with levels.

Combat/damage: Gain Shadowblade spell? Or maybe summon any light or finesse weapon as part of attacking with it, it’s magical, and you can SA when you or Target is in dim light or darkness and you don’t have disadvantage?

Gain or increase dark-vision?

Minor Illusion works well, but maybe also a higher level ability to steal shadows and turn them against people?

Eventually become insubstantial for a while?

Spells like Blur and Mage Armor also seem appropriate as using shadow to obscure and protect yourself.

Should it gain the spellcasting trait, or just certain spells x/day? or can it work largely without spells?

I can see there hexblade maybe with some dip in underdark/gloom ranger

delph said:

I can see there hexblade maybe with some dip in underdark/gloom ranger

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I'm not looking for advise on how to build a character within current official options. I'm discussing how to build a rogue subclass.

I'm leery of actual spellcasting for the concept, at most I'd give it spell-like abilities. Definitely gain/increase darkvision (like the shadow sorcerer).

I'd be tempted to pick a couple of core ideas and then spin the abities around that. For example, lets call one shadow meld. You could give some of those athletic bonuses in dim light, you could reskin or add some defensive stuff wrapped around the idea of momentary insubstiality, and also tie in some shadow manifestation that could look like shadow blade or whatever. It's cool and its themed.

The shadow teleport thing has been done of course ut its still very cool. You could always do something like Shadow Scrying where the PC can look or listen through shadows at a distance.

On the spell front, Id be more tempted to go with a mechanic more like invocations and then specifically hit up the shadow theme with appropriate per day or per rest numbers. Give that a name to, lets say Shadow Invocations because every single thing here needs he word shadow, and add new effect, durarion and whatever at incremental levels.

Thats what i gots off the top of my head, but its a cocept I love, so I'll be around.

Azzy said:

I'm leery of actual spellcasting for the concept, at most I'd give it spell-like abilities. Definitely gain/increase darkvision (like the shadow sorcerer).

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True! The rogue already has a spellcaster, might as well get a little weirder with this one.

Fenris-77 said:

I'd be tempted to pick a couple of core ideas and then spin the abities around that. For example, lets call one shadow meld. You could give some of those athletic bonuses in dim light, you could reskin or add some defensive stuff wrapped around the idea of momentary insubstiality, and also tie in some shadow manifestation that could look like shadow blade or whatever. It's cool and its themed.

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I love this. Maybe a flat AC calculation similar to Mage Armor (effectively a +1 AC compared to studded leather), some kind of bonus with athletics and acrobatics that gets much better in dim light or darkness, and extended darkvision. I think comparing it to the Swashbuckler you can just fit a "Sneak Attack if you or target are in dim light or darkness" in there. Shadow blade would have to be an upgrade, I think.

The shadow teleport thing has been done of course ut its still very cool. You could always do something like Shadow Scrying where the PC can look or listen through shadows at a distance.

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This is where I want some kind of x/day mechanic, where you can choose between things to do with that x/day, because I love tenebration, and I love this shadow scry idea!

What if you could reach through shadow if you and your target are in dim light or darkness, attacking them as if within 5ft?

On the spell front, Id be more tempted to go with a mechanic more like invocations and then specifically hit up the shadow theme with appropriate per day or per rest numbers. Give that a name to, lets say Shadow Invocations because every single thing here needs he word shadow, and add new effect, durarion and whatever at incremental levels.

Thats what i gots off the top of my head, but its a concept I love, so I'll be around.

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I like Invocations. Then you could choose whether you want a shadow blade, teleportation, shadow scrying, even greater speed, become insubstantial, etc.

I do wonder how much we could fit in a balanced subclass without leaning on invocations or spell slot equivalents?

I think the answer is a lot less than with the use of invocations, at least as far as adding some choice goes. If what we want is the standard power at 3rd, power at 9th approach, etc then it's easier to envision because it's only four abilities. If you gate abilities behind x/day or x/rest and provide some choice inside that ability you still get options and flavor without leaning on a spell-like mechanic. Multiple options for one ability or invocations probably gets us to about the same place though, so maybe we should hash out some specifics on abilities and then figure out how to implement them?

Standard Archetypes generally get two light or one heavy ability at 3rd, and then one heavy at 9/13/17. Is that the rough template we want to start with?

I'd go with the multiple light abilities at 3rd so we can splat the theme a little wider. Generally there's a movement or maneuver ability and then something with sneak attack. We might reasonably up the power level a titch if the abilities only work in dim light or darker.

Maybe something like this:

Movement (Shadow Dance?): when in dim light or shadow, the Shadow Dancer gets an additional 10' of movement and X. That second part could be advantage on athletics/Acrobatics; don't provoke attacks of opportunity; stuff like that.

Attack: when in dim light or darkness the SD get advantage on the first round of combat unless they already have disadvantage. I'd like a defensive thing in here too, something shadow-formy. Maybe call it a bonus action so it's more of choice rather than a constant mod. Maybe the bonus action grants you +2 AC for the rest of the round? Something like that - essentially it works as an additional option for cunning action. Maybe +2 is too much, IDK, that was just the number that came to mind. If this sounds like it's too much you could gate some or all of it behind, say, an Performance check (that's the shadow dance) DC whatever, at which point I'd grant Performance proficiency at 3rd as part of the Archetype. You could even add some extra effect for higher DC checks, which essentially makes the abilities scale by level, which is neat. That would get us that 'invocation' feel without using those rules, and we've added a check to help balance the strength of the skills.

I'm going to stop there. Let me know what parts of that catch your fancy and we'll keep hacking away.

I feel like rogues often get a 3rd level ability that helps them to use their sneak attack more often. The Shadow Dancer speaks to this immediately; let them enter stealth with their cunning action in dim light while under observation.

You're going to have to steal from other subclasses, though. I doubt you'll get to be fully unique on this one. We have a shadow monk, a shadow sorcerer, a shadow ranger, and lots of shadowy warlock stuff. There's going to be some overlap. That's okay. Shadow is a big enough power source for multiple classes; how many arcane casters do we have?

Do you want this to be a shadow weapon creating class (I wouldn't), or just someone who uses shadows to be a thief/assassin/scout?

I'd want to see no penalty to stealth when moving full speed. I'd want to see darkvision and possibly de il sight. I'd want to see the invisibility to darkvision from the gloom stalker ranger.

I don't think I'd want to see too much manipulation of shadow, though. I wouldn't want the darkness spell. I would want shadow teleportation (that's the dancer part to me). I'd want disappearing under someone's nose. Maybe the ability to snuff out flames, as shadows sap heat.

I like stealth at full speed when in dim light or shadow a lot.

Fenris-77 said:

I like stealth at full speed when in dim light or shadow a lot.

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Thinking back, does stealth get a penalty with speed actually? Cunning Action still allows the rogue to use their action for a dash.