D&D 5E Variable stat caps. Anyone ever used?

oreofox · Jul 13, 2019

I just reduced the cap to 18 for all scores, removed the +2 from races and added it to classes (does not apply when multiclassing), and the races get a +1 to a score of choice. Gets rid of halfling rogues, elf wizards, tiefling warlocks, etc. Allows for goliath wizards, gnome barbarians, elf bards, tiefling fighters, and so on. I've even started writing up a homebrew where the ability scores are like they were in 2eAD&D, modified a bit to be slightly more similar to 5e (mostly for spell saves and such), though they don't go nearly as high (mostly copy-pasted either the Str to hit mod, or Dex defense mod, can't recall which one). I haven't playtested that, but the first part (before previous sentence) is working just fine.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

oreofox said:
I just reduced the cap to 18 for all scores, removed the +2 from races and added it to classes (does not apply when multiclassing), and the races get a +1 to a score of choice. Gets rid of halfling rogues, elf wizards, tiefling warlocks, etc. Allows for goliath wizards, gnome barbarians, elf bards, tiefling fighters, and so on. I've even started writing up a homebrew where the ability scores are like they were in 2eAD&D, modified a bit to be slightly more similar to 5e (mostly for spell saves and such), though they don't go nearly as high (mostly copy-pasted either the Str to hit mod, or Dex defense mod, can't recall which one). I haven't playtested that, but the first part (before previous sentence) is working just fine.

Why lower the cap to 18?

DND_Reborn · Jul 13, 2019

For a while we lowered the maximum ability score bonus to +4 to balance it better with proficiency bonus since our table doesn't feel the two should be near equal (+5 vs +6 maxes). However after we raised the maximum proficiency bonus to +8 at 20th, we returned to the +5 max at 20 ability score.

Here are some more options to think about:

1. Reduce racial stats to two +1 ASIs
2. Add a +1 ASI for class, with two options to choose for each, I would start maybe with the saves as choices...
3. Make ASI at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th a mandatory +1 to TWO stats. You cannot add +2 to one.
4. Fighters and Rogues get feats at their bonus ASI levels and cannot choose to boost stats (they can select a feat that will, of course).

This way a character can, at maximum, add +5 to any one ability score (ok, so I suppose a Rogue is +6 and Fighter +7 if they take feats that boost the same ability).

More importantly IMO, a character could begin the game with a max score of 17 (15 +1 racial and +1 class), except for variant human who could have an 18 with a feat that boosts the 17 to 18. Regardless, with a maximum +1 boost at 4th, 8th, and 12th each, a character typically won't have a 20 ability score until 12th level. Personally, I am ok with it at that point, but I don't like seeing to at 4th or 8th...

oreofox · Jul 13, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Why lower the cap to 18?

Just my preference, and brings a somewhat closer feeling to AD&D where 18 was basically the cap for anything. I originally wanted to make Gauntlets of Ogre Power more relevant and desireable for the martial classes (fighter, barbarian, etc), but with how ability scores act since 2000 with the release of 3e, a 19 isn't much different than an 18, which is why I am going to try to port in the AD&D ability scores into my 5e games.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

oreofox said:
Just my preference, and brings a somewhat closer feeling to AD&D where 18 was basically the cap for anything. I originally wanted to make Gauntlets of Ogre Power more relevant and desireable for the martial classes (fighter, barbarian, etc), but with how ability scores act since 2000 with the release of 3e, a 19 isn't much different than an 18, which is why I am going to try to port in the AD&D ability scores into my 5e games.

Honestly 18 cap overall might work out pretty well. Just 1 ASI to max your prime stat and then you can branch out. It's not as bad as I first thought. Decreases overall PC power a little. Can easily be made up for with more magic items if desired so that isn't so bad.

5ekyu · Jul 13, 2019

oreofox said:
I just reduced the cap to 18 for all scores, removed the +2 from races and added it to classes (does not apply when multiclassing), and the races get a +1 to a score of choice. Gets rid of halfling rogues, elf wizards, tiefling warlocks, etc. Allows for goliath wizards, gnome barbarians, elf bards, tiefling fighters, and so on. I've even started writing up a homebrew where the ability scores are like they were in 2eAD&D, modified a bit to be slightly more similar to 5e (mostly for spell saves and such), though they don't go nearly as high (mostly copy-pasted either the Str to hit mod, or Dex defense mod, can't recall which one). I haven't playtested that, but the first part (before previous sentence) is working just fine.

The "gets rid of" is an area which bothers me. Like most changes it just swaps the "best of" combo's around a smidge picking different winners and losers. Myself I woulda expected halfling to still see some rogue play for their hiding edge in crowds unless your targeted get rid of cut that as well.

oreofox · Jul 13, 2019

5ekyu said:
The "gets rid of" is an area which bothers me. Like most changes it just swaps the "best of" combo's around a smidge picking different winners and losers. Myself I woulda expected halfling to still see some rogue play for their hiding edge in crowds unless your targeted get rid of cut that as well.

By "get rid of" I meant it isn't only just halfling rogues, tiefling warlocks, etc. Most people seem to choose their race on what gives them that +2 to their class's main stat, or choose their class based on the race's +2 bonus. So it opens up more than just tiefling warlocks or elf wizards. I had someone play an elf barbarian. I had a tiefling monk in another game. It opens up more variety and choice to the players for character creation, without them feeling "gimped" (which is a mindset I absolutely hate, and is the entire reason behind me making this change).

I do admit "gets rid of" was a bad choice in wording.

5ekyu · Jul 13, 2019

oreofox said:
By "get rid of" I meant it isn't only just halfling rogues, tiefling warlocks, etc. Most people seem to choose their race on what gives them that +2 to their class's main stat, or choose their class based on the race's +2 bonus. So it opens up more than just tiefling warlocks or elf wizards. I had someone play an elf barbarian. I had a tiefling monk in another game. It opens up more variety and choice to the players for character creation, without them feeling "gimped" (which is a mindset I absolutely hate, and is the entire reason behind me making this change).

I do admit "gets rid of" was a bad choice in wording.

In my experience, most pick class-race that gives them either a +1 or +2 not strictly +2 because fishing for two 16s is pretty easy for either point buy or array.

But also, the next tier is the race that gives you add-ons that matter to that class.

So, if you remove ability scores ftom race, you boil down to the same folks who choose for optimal now choose based on the features.

So, to guess look for easy hide options. Mages look for extra cantrips or spells.

But since some races get shy better ability scores and others get better features, seems yanking out ability scores and just leaving features is maybe great for your game but an approach I would find doubtful.

GreenTengu · Jul 13, 2019

I don't think it is a good idea.

What benefit could possibly come from "Well, let's roll die and determine the maximum possible potential this character could have even if you played it to level 20 and obtained the best magic items."?

I mean-- either they are going to get really good values and decide to change their entire plan with the character in order to capitalize on it... or they are going to get really bad values at which time they will likely decide to intentionally have the character die so they can make one without those artificial limitations in place.

Is there some big upside to this that I am just not seeing?

FrogReaver · Jul 14, 2019

GreenTengu said:
I don't think it is a good idea.

What benefit could possibly come from "Well, let's roll die and determine the maximum possible potential this character could have even if you played it to level 20 and obtained the best magic items."?

From an optimization perspective - everything. Consider a level 1 fighter with the following stats

16 str
14 dex
12 con
13 wisdom
8 int
11 cha

Lets say he rolls a cap on str of 16. A cap on dex of 14. A cap of con of 20. Let's ignore the mental stats for now.

Now instead of optimizing said character by maxing strength like every other fighter (or dex if an archer) - he instead is able to optimize by maxing con. In other words, optimization becomes unique to your individual character instead being generalized to every character you ever make. I find that a much more interesting form of optimization. However, even more important than that, this system change encourages players to play non-cookie cutter characters and I think we need a lot more of that.

I mean-- either they are going to get really good values and decide to change their entire plan with the character in order to capitalize on it... or they are going to get really bad values at which time they will likely decide to intentionally have the character die so they can make one without those artificial limitations in place.

As with any rolling system - if values are unplayably bad then rerolling the caps are in order.

Is there some big upside to this that I am just not seeing?

yes

D&D 5E Variable stat caps. Anyone ever used?

oreofox

Explorer

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

oreofox

Explorer

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

5ekyu

Hero

oreofox

Explorer

5ekyu

Hero

GreenTengu

Adventurer

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

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