Life Cleric, Arcane Cleric or something totally different?

FrogReaver · Jul 16, 2019

Esker said:
Good call. I'd go Oath of Conquest for the fear effect and the fear spell at 9th. All Paladins also get Bless, Aid (which stacks with inspiring leader), Aura of Vitality, Crusader's Mantle... I think the main drawback compared to Cleric is that a lot of your support abilities are spells or Channel Divinity, and you get fewer of both than the Cleric.

Yea. I just foresee the cleric doing more spirit guardians and less actual support. Multiclassing considerations can help the paladin a lot.

Esker · Jul 17, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Yea. I just foresee the cleric doing more spirit guardians and less actual support. Multiclassing considerations can help the paladin a lot.

I mean, just because you have spirit guardians doesn't mean you have to use it. If you're a support-focused cleric you might prefer to concentrate on, say, Slow (which Order Clerics get), or even just Bless. The problem with multiclassing as a support Paladin to up your spell slots is that you really want Paladin 6 for the aura, and then if you multiclass into a full caster (Divine Soul Sorcerer, say), it's level 11 before you get 3rd level spells, which is two levels later than a single classed Paladin (although you do have a lot more slots to use). Plus, Lay on Hands scales with Paladin level, so if you're multiclassing you give up the healing advantage you have over the Cleric.

Compare an Cleric 6 to a Paladin 6. The Order Cleric has 4/3/3 in spell slots; the Paladin has 4/2. If the cleric uses one 3rd level cure wounds and one 2nd level cure wounds, that heals an average of about 30HP (assuming 18 WIS), the same as the Paladin's entire lay on hands pool. And the cleric is still up two 3rd level spell slots (and gets two channel divinities per short rest vs the Paladin's 1).

Granted, the passive aura is hard to beat, and the Cleric's 3rd level support spell options are not that great, though again, Order Clerics get Slow, which is pretty nice (War Clerics get Crusader's Mantle if you wanted to be more Paladin-y; their 6th level Channel Divinity option is nice too, though their other domain features are not very support-oriented).

FrogReaver · Jul 17, 2019

Esker said:
I mean, just because you have spirit guardians doesn't mean you have to use it. If you're a support-focused cleric you might prefer to concentrate on, say, Slow (which Order Clerics get), or even just Bless. The problem with multiclassing as a support Paladin to up your spell slots is that you really want Paladin 6 for the aura, and then if you multiclass into a full caster (Divine Soul Sorcerer, say), it's level 11 before you get 3rd level spells, which is two levels later than a single classed Paladin (although you do have a lot more slots to use). Plus, Lay on Hands scales with Paladin level, so if you're multiclassing you give up the healing advantage you have over the Cleric.

Compare an Cleric 6 to a Paladin 6. The Order Cleric has 4/3/3 in spell slots; the Paladin has 4/2. If the cleric uses one 3rd level cure wounds and one 2nd level cure wounds, that heals an average of about 30HP (assuming 18 WIS), the same as the Paladin's entire lay on hands pool. And the cleric is still up two 3rd level spell slots (and gets two channel divinities per short rest vs the Paladin's 1).

Granted, the passive aura is hard to beat, and the Cleric's 3rd level support spell options are not that great, though again, Order Clerics get Slow, which is pretty nice (War Clerics get Crusader's Mantle if you wanted to be more Paladin-y; their 6th level Channel Divinity option is nice too, though their other domain features are not very support-oriented).

You seem to be arguing against a position I never took. Order clerics are by far the cleric is recommend for support. But clerics are typically much better off at offense than support, thanks to spirit guardians. I mean really, what good support spells do clerics get that they will be using encounter after encounter after levels 5+

Esker · Jul 17, 2019

FrogReaver said:
You seem to be arguing against a position I never took. Order clerics are by far the cleric is recommend for support. But clerics are typically much better off at offense than support, thanks to spirit guardians. I mean really, what good support spells do clerics get that they will be using encounter after encounter after levels 5+

I agree that after about level 9, a conquest paladin has more support options than an order cleric, though they can't use the options they have as much as the cleric can.

Slow stays relevant through high levels, outside legendary resistance. Guidance stays relevant out of combat. Bless stays relevant and Aid scales well (both are available to both classes, but the Cleric's spell slot advantage gives them the edge). At level 11 the Cleric gets Heroes' Feast, which is amazing if have some idea of when you'll face bosses. Upcasting Banishment can be good.

The Conquest Paladin gets a bunch of good 3rd level concentration options at class level 9: Aura of Vitality, Crusader's Mantle, and Fear. But they only get two or three uses between all of those per day until much later. And then there's not much else until level 17, when they get Circle of Power (which is great, but you probably won't get there). Their real support strength is their auras, which are fantastic; I'm not knocking that, and it may well be enough reason to choose the class depending on what kind of support you want to be doing. But in terms of spell-based support, I think the Cleric has the edge, simply due to being a full caster.

Esker · Jul 17, 2019

Also someone in the party should have access to Greater Restoration.

FrogReaver · Jul 18, 2019

Esker said:
I agree that after about level 9, a conquest paladin has more support options than an order cleric, though they can't use the options they have as much as the cleric can.

Slow stays relevant through high levels, outside legendary resistance. Guidance stays relevant out of combat. Bless stays relevant and Aid scales well (both are available to both classes, but the Cleric's spell slot advantage gives them the edge). At level 11 the Cleric gets Heroes' Feast, which is amazing if have some idea of when you'll face bosses. Upcasting Banishment can be good.

The Conquest Paladin gets a bunch of good 3rd level concentration options at class level 9: Aura of Vitality, Crusader's Mantle, and Fear. But they only get two or three uses between all of those per day until much later. And then there's not much else until level 17, when they get Circle of Power (which is great, but you probably won't get there). Their real support strength is their auras, which are fantastic; I'm not knocking that, and it may well be enough reason to choose the class depending on what kind of support you want to be doing. But in terms of spell-based support, I think the Cleric has the edge, simply due to being a full caster.

In terms of in combat support my ratings are:
Cleric 1 > Paladin 1
Cleric 2 < Paladin 2
Cleric 3 = Paladin 3
Cleric 4 > Paladin 4
Cleric 5 > Paladin 5
Cleric 6 < Paladin 6
Cleric 7 < Paladin 7
Cleric 8 < Paladin 8
Cleric 9 < Paladin 9

I'd honestly suggest to mutliclass after paladin 11 (I'd stick around at least till then as paladins get some awesome level 3 support spells).

Clerics of course have guidance, rituals and wisdom skills for out of combat. Paladins have charisma skills.

I still think the charisma based paladin with inspiring leader will be a bit better support overall. The cleric is close though and better for out of combat tasks.

Esker · Jul 18, 2019

FrogReaver said:
In terms of in combat support my ratings are:
Cleric 1 > Paladin 1
Cleric 2 < Paladin 2
Cleric 3 = Paladin 3
Cleric 4 > Paladin 4
Cleric 5 > Paladin 5
Cleric 6 < Paladin 6
Cleric 7 < Paladin 7
Cleric 8 < Paladin 8
Cleric 9 < Paladin 9

I think most of that is reasonable. I'd give Cleric 3 > Paladin 3, since a single casting of Aid is worth the same HP as the Paladin's entire lay on hands pool (it's better in some ways since prebuffing is better than healing, and worse in others because you have to divide it evenly among three PCs), and then after that the Cleric still has one 2nd level and one 1st level slot that the Paladin doesn't. From 6-8 I think it just depends how much you value the passive auras vs the Cleric's spell options. It's totally reasonable to value the auras more, in which case the Paladin has the edge. I think it's also reasonable to value the spells more (for at least Order Clerics and maybe War Clerics), but it's a different kind of support.

Paul Smart · Jul 23, 2019

Thanks for the help everyone. I decided to go for Celestial Warlock (nice healing) Pact of the Tome (all the rituals). When necessary I will be a magic archer but my main thing will be healing and ritual support. May pick up a whip as a weapon (1 level of fighter for Con saves and weapons). Will probably go Tortle for race just to be different.