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lowkey13
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Tony Vargas
Legend
*ahem* mimimimimimi /ME/… let's do this...
TRIGGER WARNING: I'm going to use the dreaded N(ostalgia) word. I'm only using it because it applies to me, and how I feel about revisiting the classic games I played decades ago. And, since I am applying it to myself, I hope it's clear I'm using it in a positive sense (yes, there are some).
[sblock="Contains Nostalgia"]For /my/self, I have to admit that when I'm in the mood to paleo-game, as I like call it, retroclones aren't what immediately call to me. I just pull out my faded 1st Edition Gamma World rulebook and run a crazy game of random mutants mucking about with random artifacts. Of course, when that urge first hit me it was c2000, the d20 phenom set me itching to play the classic games, and there weren't a lot of re-boots yet. OSR wasn't a thing, the re-boot of Gamma World they eventual came up with was horribly disappointing. So I dug up this crumbling old boxed set, figured out how to efficiently build characters /super fast/ at a con, and off I went. I must've run it 4 or 5 years in a row, sometimes at two cons each year. It was that awesome.
So it was nostalgia, pure and simple, for me - with a leavening of that specific flavor of nostalgia, that didn't-get-to-play-this-particular-game-as-much-as-I'd've-liked-back-in-the-day, and a bit of lampshading of Murphy's Rules and other archaisms - because I immediately loved Gamma World when I first read the book, but got to run & play it only a little back in the day. Enough to go 'wow' this is crazy-broken-awesome, not nearly enough to get bored with it. Then it was continuous frustration with new editions that didn't really hit the same notes, or had whacked alternative systems - 4th & 7th & Omega World were bright spots.[/sblock]
But, old or new, whatever the borked rules may be, if I fix 'em up just the way I like 'em, they're justfinethankyou, for me. And if, decades later a new version comes out and fixes 'em up a different way, well, that's not the same, is it? It's a different experience, a different feel from what I got back then, and may be looking to re-experience and/or share now. For that matter, I can evoke some of the feel of a classic game specifically /by/ lampshading it's old "Murphy's Rules," it gives me that sense of "this is how it was, this is the real deal" - and, if I'm sharing it with someone who wasn't there for that, it gives them a version of that experience, too, because it's like, this is history, this is part of how we got to modern RPGs, was playing this early stuff, and figuring it out, and having a blast with it.
Never Change.
TRIGGER WARNING: I'm going to use the dreaded N(ostalgia) word. I'm only using it because it applies to me, and how I feel about revisiting the classic games I played decades ago. And, since I am applying it to myself, I hope it's clear I'm using it in a positive sense (yes, there are some).
(still funny, btw)
[sblock="Contains Nostalgia"]For /my/self, I have to admit that when I'm in the mood to paleo-game, as I like call it, retroclones aren't what immediately call to me. I just pull out my faded 1st Edition Gamma World rulebook and run a crazy game of random mutants mucking about with random artifacts. Of course, when that urge first hit me it was c2000, the d20 phenom set me itching to play the classic games, and there weren't a lot of re-boots yet. OSR wasn't a thing, the re-boot of Gamma World they eventual came up with was horribly disappointing. So I dug up this crumbling old boxed set, figured out how to efficiently build characters /super fast/ at a con, and off I went. I must've run it 4 or 5 years in a row, sometimes at two cons each year. It was that awesome.
So it was nostalgia, pure and simple, for me - with a leavening of that specific flavor of nostalgia, that didn't-get-to-play-this-particular-game-as-much-as-I'd've-liked-back-in-the-day, and a bit of lampshading of Murphy's Rules and other archaisms - because I immediately loved Gamma World when I first read the book, but got to run & play it only a little back in the day. Enough to go 'wow' this is crazy-broken-awesome, not nearly enough to get bored with it. Then it was continuous frustration with new editions that didn't really hit the same notes, or had whacked alternative systems - 4th & 7th & Omega World were bright spots.[/sblock]
The same could be said of many a brand-new TTRPG (and has been, often very mean-spiritedly). I think it just comes with the territory. RPGs are complex, in any given RPG, old or new, there'll be sub-systems that work well, others indifferently, and some that are a little borked. And there'll be those who are just looking for something to take a hatchet too.
But, old or new, whatever the borked rules may be, if I fix 'em up just the way I like 'em, they're justfinethankyou, for me. And if, decades later a new version comes out and fixes 'em up a different way, well, that's not the same, is it? It's a different experience, a different feel from what I got back then, and may be looking to re-experience and/or share now. For that matter, I can evoke some of the feel of a classic game specifically /by/ lampshading it's old "Murphy's Rules," it gives me that sense of "this is how it was, this is the real deal" - and, if I'm sharing it with someone who wasn't there for that, it gives them a version of that experience, too, because it's like, this is history, this is part of how we got to modern RPGs, was playing this early stuff, and figuring it out, and having a blast with it.
Fixed that for you.
Never Change.
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lowkey13
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Tony Vargas
Legend
You don't need to see my identification...
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lowkey13
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Sacrosanct
Legend
You pretty much nailed my big reasons as well. Especially things like:
Chargen: not only fast and easy, but you didn't spend all this time making your PC awesome before you even played a minute of the game. The gameplay is what makes your player awesome, not chargen. It's the whole zero to hero preference.
Niche protection, as you mentioned
Random magic item tables: What's that? you found a magical battle axe, but your PC uses a sword? Well, that's what was there, because the last person to use it used a battle axe. I prefer more living world than one where you change and cater to PC wants. I almost never change found magic items just because it's what a PC wants instead.
Streamlined rules: again, as you mention. It allows the game to flow faster and more smoothly IME
And no, it's not nostalgia. We've given cold hard objective rules that lend to a style we prefer. Anyone saying it's just nostalgia is either unaware of what that word means, or is being intentionally dismissive.
Chargen: not only fast and easy, but you didn't spend all this time making your PC awesome before you even played a minute of the game. The gameplay is what makes your player awesome, not chargen. It's the whole zero to hero preference.
Niche protection, as you mentioned
Random magic item tables: What's that? you found a magical battle axe, but your PC uses a sword? Well, that's what was there, because the last person to use it used a battle axe. I prefer more living world than one where you change and cater to PC wants. I almost never change found magic items just because it's what a PC wants instead.
Streamlined rules: again, as you mention. It allows the game to flow faster and more smoothly IME
And no, it's not nostalgia. We've given cold hard objective rules that lend to a style we prefer. Anyone saying it's just nostalgia is either unaware of what that word means, or is being intentionally dismissive.
Xaelvaen
Stuck in the 90s
Just devil's advocate here - Nostalgia's definition does involve personal experience, but there's a great deal of work in the psychology field on this very topic, and there's no definitive answer - too many contradictory inputs. Wistfulness and Yearning are often related - and there's a Portuguese word (Saudade) which is basically pseudo-nostalgia, and C.S. Lewis used sehnsucht of course. So, many people feel 'nostalgia' for things that aren't their personal memories, and in English, for lack of a better word, it just has to fit.
There's one study relating it to music, in fact - pretty interesting stuff.
Myself, I use nostalgia for that feeling as well, though I know full well the classic definition isn't accurate for the sensation, but the emotions behind feeling real nostalgia, and this pseudo-nostalgia, are either identical, or so close that I cannot separate them. I'm assuming this is a huge phenomenon to have so many studies going on about it.
I'm rather nostalgic for 2E - never played the older editions, in that I started in 89. I find the systems similar enough, if you remove the splat books and options, that I've never been bothered to try anything older. Would it be recommended to give it a try despite this? All your bullet points resonate with me the same way 2E did, so I'm curious -
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Stormonu
Legend
In my opinion, 5E itself is a retroclone (as is Pathfinder, another game I like) - it takes the components I like from previous versions and mixes them in with some modern elements to make a version I have been quite enjoying.
At the same time, I have pulled out my old 2E books recently to play a game of Ravenloft for Halloween - and it took my players a bit aback, as they hadn’t encountered anything prior to 3E prior to that. They enjoyed it for those few sessions, but as we played we were in agreement that we’d stick primarily with 5E. But an occasional one-shot (or three) into something like BECM or Castles & Crusade wouldn’t be opposed.
I can’t put my finger on anything specific beyond it being “familiar”. Perhaps lower levels in these older games feel a little bit less superheroic (I prefer a world a bit on the gritty side, more Conan and less Harry Potter), but it’s basically just “different”.
(As an aside, I can’t stand 1E, so I generally only look at retro clones/editions that emulate BECM or 2E+).
At the same time, I have pulled out my old 2E books recently to play a game of Ravenloft for Halloween - and it took my players a bit aback, as they hadn’t encountered anything prior to 3E prior to that. They enjoyed it for those few sessions, but as we played we were in agreement that we’d stick primarily with 5E. But an occasional one-shot (or three) into something like BECM or Castles & Crusade wouldn’t be opposed.
I can’t put my finger on anything specific beyond it being “familiar”. Perhaps lower levels in these older games feel a little bit less superheroic (I prefer a world a bit on the gritty side, more Conan and less Harry Potter), but it’s basically just “different”.
(As an aside, I can’t stand 1E, so I generally only look at retro clones/editions that emulate BECM or 2E+).
Yeah, let's not let the nostalgia comment derail this thread.
I agree 100%. I run old school editions regularly (equal frequency as 5E). I run Basic Fantasy RPG, which is a modern day retro clone of B/X (with some minor differences... not a pure clone).
I mostly DM, so some of my favorite parts of old school are more slanted in that direction (I'll have more to follow).
1. Focus on Exploration
I prefer the focus of old school games on exploration as opposed to combat. I prefer this focus... exploring a dungeon, deciding which way to go, dealing with traps, secret doors, puzzles, are all the core experiences to me. Combat is a part of the game, but it is just another obstacle. Its not the end all of the experience. I like that combat is fast and resolved quickly so we can get back to the action.
2. Resource Management
Everything is a resource in old school games, and you don't have enough. You don't have enough hit points to survive every fight . You don't have enough light to freely explore, you don't have enough strength to carry everything needed, you don't have enough time to carefully search, you don't have enough spells... etc.
This is the game, to me. You have to make choices to utilize your limited resources as efficiently as possible. This is what I find most fun as a player. Everything you do costs a resource and you have limited resources. It makes every choice have meaning and tension. You have to think carefully about whether an endeavor is worth any of the above.
3. Easy prep.
Monsters are much easier to understand and design. If I need a cool monster for a dungeon, I can just figure out how many hit dice it should have and any special powers it has and I'm done. There's no formula needed to build a monster against CR or build points or so on.
B/X provides dungeon generation rules. If I'm in a bind, I can whip up something very quickly using that guidance.
4. Hit Dice.
The one to one ration between hit dice and combat ability that is shared between PCs and monsters. A HD is a tangible measure of capability and is easier to use than CR or encounter budgets. I also like how one hit die is 1-8 hit points and a typical weapon die is also 1-6 or 1-8. I like how hit dice are a direct how many hits a monster can likely take.
5. Morale and Reactions.
These are vital to the old school experience. I think most of the stories frequently promoted about osr games being slaughterhouses are probably stories of games that have ignored these rules. If you use these rules, the game is MUCH less deadly than its reputation. For example (in B/X), only a reaction roll result of 2 on a roll of 2d6 results in a Monsters Automatically Attack result.
Every other result of the reaction roll is some level of hostility but not immediate attack. This means that players have the ability to avoid encounters by interacting with monsters. The worse results may mean they may need to give up treasure or food, but better results may allow for an exchange of information or out-right friendly encounters. It just adds so much more variance to an encounter than just hack and slash play.
Morale plays a similar role... a party may be outnumbered but if they break morale they may end up victorious.
A side benefit of both of these rules is that as a DM you don't need to worry as much about encounter balance. The reaction roll normally puts the players in the position to pick their fights and morale allows for a way for them to potentially win against a superior force.
I agree 100%. I run old school editions regularly (equal frequency as 5E). I run Basic Fantasy RPG, which is a modern day retro clone of B/X (with some minor differences... not a pure clone).
I mostly DM, so some of my favorite parts of old school are more slanted in that direction (I'll have more to follow).
1. Focus on Exploration
I prefer the focus of old school games on exploration as opposed to combat. I prefer this focus... exploring a dungeon, deciding which way to go, dealing with traps, secret doors, puzzles, are all the core experiences to me. Combat is a part of the game, but it is just another obstacle. Its not the end all of the experience. I like that combat is fast and resolved quickly so we can get back to the action.
2. Resource Management
Everything is a resource in old school games, and you don't have enough. You don't have enough hit points to survive every fight . You don't have enough light to freely explore, you don't have enough strength to carry everything needed, you don't have enough time to carefully search, you don't have enough spells... etc.
This is the game, to me. You have to make choices to utilize your limited resources as efficiently as possible. This is what I find most fun as a player. Everything you do costs a resource and you have limited resources. It makes every choice have meaning and tension. You have to think carefully about whether an endeavor is worth any of the above.
3. Easy prep.
Monsters are much easier to understand and design. If I need a cool monster for a dungeon, I can just figure out how many hit dice it should have and any special powers it has and I'm done. There's no formula needed to build a monster against CR or build points or so on.
B/X provides dungeon generation rules. If I'm in a bind, I can whip up something very quickly using that guidance.
4. Hit Dice.
The one to one ration between hit dice and combat ability that is shared between PCs and monsters. A HD is a tangible measure of capability and is easier to use than CR or encounter budgets. I also like how one hit die is 1-8 hit points and a typical weapon die is also 1-6 or 1-8. I like how hit dice are a direct how many hits a monster can likely take.
5. Morale and Reactions.
These are vital to the old school experience. I think most of the stories frequently promoted about osr games being slaughterhouses are probably stories of games that have ignored these rules. If you use these rules, the game is MUCH less deadly than its reputation. For example (in B/X), only a reaction roll result of 2 on a roll of 2d6 results in a Monsters Automatically Attack result.
Every other result of the reaction roll is some level of hostility but not immediate attack. This means that players have the ability to avoid encounters by interacting with monsters. The worse results may mean they may need to give up treasure or food, but better results may allow for an exchange of information or out-right friendly encounters. It just adds so much more variance to an encounter than just hack and slash play.
Morale plays a similar role... a party may be outnumbered but if they break morale they may end up victorious.
A side benefit of both of these rules is that as a DM you don't need to worry as much about encounter balance. The reaction roll normally puts the players in the position to pick their fights and morale allows for a way for them to potentially win against a superior force.
Tony Vargas
Legend
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