D&D 5E Death and 0 Max HP

Maxperson · Jul 16, 2019

jaelis said:
Only if you ignore the tenses of the verbs involved. I gather you feel OK with that, but I don't know why.

The text has the form "Something happens (present tense) if something happens (present tense)." Try substituting some other phrases in:

"You collect $10,000 if the hurricane destroys your home." Your insurance company will not pay you another $10k next month, even if your home is still destroyed.

"You get a ticket if an officer catches you speeding." You don't continue to automatically get a ticket every time you speed for the rest of your life.

"Joe gets mad if you beat him at Mario Kart." That doesn't imply Joe will be mad at you tomorrow, even if you haven't played Mario Kart again.

i can't think of an everyday example of that form where there is a clear implication the effect is ongoing. You would use the past perfect for that: "Something happens if something has happened."

Just to be clear, this is rules lawyering, and not particularly relevant to how I would play the game, or suggest anyone else should play it. (I put my 2 cents in on that early on in the thread.) But if you're going to argue about the text of the rules, then rules lawyering is what you are doing, and you should do it accurately.

On the other hand, if something says, "When all your walls are turned to jell-o, the house collapses.", it is expected to be ongoing. Nobody is going to think that the next day the walls on the collapsed house are no longer jell-o. You are going to have to fix those walls before the house can be rebuilt.

jaelis · Jul 16, 2019

Maxperson said:
On the other hand, if something says, "When all your walls are turned to jell-o, the house collapses.", it is expected to be ongoing. Nobody is going to think that the next day the walls on the collapsed house are no longer jell-o. You are going to have to fix those walls before the house can be rebuilt.

Yes but that's not the form used here. The right analogy is "When all your walls turn to jell-o, the house collapses." Present tense, not a verbal phrase like "are turned."

Now you might be saying, "yes but your house won't stand as long as the walls are jello." Sure I agree, but that is because of what I know about jello and houses, not because of what (my version of) the sentence says.

Maxperson · Jul 16, 2019

jaelis said:
Yes but that's not the form used here. The right analogy is "When all your walls turn to jell-o, the house collapses." Present tense, not a verbal phrase like "are turned."

Now you might be saying, "yes but your house won't stand as long as the walls are jello." Sure I agree, but that is because of what I know about jello and houses, not because of what (my version of) the sentence says.

Sure, but we also know about draining and when something is drained to death, what is drained doesn't come back. Bringing a vampire/wight drained corpse back to life still leaves you at 0 max hit points due to the draining, which is the condition necessary for instant death.

jaelis · Jul 16, 2019

Maxperson said:
Sure, but we also know about draining and when something is drained to death, what is drained doesn't come back. Bringing a vampire/wight drained corpse back to life still leaves you at 0 max hit points due to the draining, which is the condition necessary for instant death.

No, being at 0 hp is not a condition for instant death. Being bitten by a vampire and getting reduced to 0 hp is. Not "having been bitten by a vampire," but actually being taken to 0 hp by a bite. Just like in "When all your walls turn to jell-o, the house collapses" the condition for collapsing is being turned to jello, not being jello.

Oofta · Jul 16, 2019

After a bit of caffeine I thought I'd clarify what I was saying.

A person is slain when reduced to 0 max HP from a vampire bite. "The target dies if this effect reduces it hit point maximum to 0." It does not state "The person cannot be raised from the dead if this effect reduces it hit point maximum to 0."

So when raise dead is cast one of two things happen.

Either they are raised to 1 HP and there is no issue. Specific overrides general, the max HP of 0 is ignored and the person is alive with 1 HP. Go take a long rest.

The other option is that they can not be raised to 1 HP because their max is 0. They're still brought back to life because there's no reason to negate that part of the spell. They're unconscious at 0 HP and need a greater restoration (you can't long rest while at 0 HP). Their max HP remains unchanged, therefore the clause "if this effect reduces it hit point maximum to 0" is not invoked and they are not slain.

Personally I'd rule the former works, it's specific wording of the spell that overrides the general max HP. The latter also works. Or just allow a greater restoration on the corpse even though it is no longer considered a creature.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

jaelis · Jul 16, 2019

Oofta said:
Or just allow a greater restoration on the corpse even though it is no longer considered a creature.

I agree with your alternatives, and this here is I think the most sensible way to play it.

DND_Reborn · Jul 16, 2019

Oofta said:
After a bit of caffeine I thought I'd clarify what I was saying.

A person is slain when reduced to 0 max HP from a vampire bite. "The target dies if this effect reduces it hit point maximum to 0." It does not state "The person cannot be raised from the dead if this effect reduces it hit point maximum to 0."

So when raise dead is cast one of two things happen.

Either they are raised to 1 HP and there is no issue. Specific overrides general, the max HP of 0 is ignored and the person is alive with 1 HP. Go take a long rest.

The other option is that they can not be raised to 1 HP because their max is 0. They're still brought back to life because there's no reason to negate that part of the spell. They're unconscious at 0 HP and need a greater restoration (you can't long rest while at 0 HP). Their max HP remains unchanged, therefore the clause "if this effect reduces it hit point maximum to 0" is not invoked and they are not slain.

Personally I'd rule the former works, it's specific wording of the spell that overrides the general max HP. The latter also works. Or just allow a greater restoration on the corpse even though it is no longer considered a creature.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Option 1: Raise dead works. Character at max XP 0, in coma, never wakes up. Cast Greater Restoration, will wake up.

Option 2: Raise dead fails. Cast Greater Restoration first (allowing it to be cast on the former-creature which is technically now an object), then Raise Dead works fine.

Option 3: EXTREME DMing. Raise Dead fails. Greater Restoration can't be cast on an object. Good luck finding a Wish spell.

jaelis said:
I agree with your alternatives, and this here is I think the most sensible way to play it.

FYI the Greater Restoration/ Raise Dead combo is how our DM is ruling it. For story-flare, they have to be cast in conjunction during a "special ceremony", etc. Now we just have to find two clerics high enough level and get the money to pay them. LOL.

As for the annoying rules lawyering, as I said I am finished with it. It is all about interpretation of the vampire bite effect. You feel once the character dies, the effect no longer keeps them at max hp 0, I (and my DM obviously) feel otherwise. Have a nice day.

Oofta · Jul 16, 2019

dnd4vr said:
FYI the Greater Restoration/ Raise Dead combo is how our DM is ruling it. For story-flare, they have to be cast in conjunction during a "special ceremony", etc. Now we just have to find two clerics high enough level and get the money to pay them. LOL.

As for the annoying rules lawyering, as I said I am finished with it. It is all about interpretation of the vampire bite effect. You feel once the character dies, the effect no longer keeps them at max hp 0, I (and my DM obviously) feel otherwise. Have a nice day.

I think the simplest interpretation is that the specific wording of raise dead overrides the general max HP restriction. But even if it doesn't, the trigger for being slain by having max HP reduced to zero cannot be met. If you're already at 0 max HP, your max HP can't be reduced. Since they aren't reduced you aren't slain.

But the only important thing is that there's a fun alternative to resolve the obstacle.

WaterRabbit · Jul 16, 2019

While everyone is dancing around this, to me the most obvious solution is to have the Raise Dead spell return the character with 1 hp. The character can now be healed from that point forward. Raise Dead requires a 9th level character to perform -- it is a powerful spell and requires that both the deity granting the spell and the character receiving the spell agree. It would be pointless to allow the spell to go forward and have the character immediately die.

To me, the Raise Dead spell supersedes the "long rest" requirement and as part of the spell would reset the character's HP maximum. Anything else seems to be trying to hard to rules lawyer the problem.

jaelis · Jul 16, 2019

WaterRabbit said:
Raise Dead requires a 9th level character to perform

Well to be fair, a vampire is a CR 13 monster. It's not absurd to decide that it takes more than a 5th level spell to counter a vampire's effects.

Not that I object to your solution, just that I wouldn't say it was a no-brainer. Allowing wish to work is a no-brainer.