D&D 5E Death and 0 Max HP

Hriston · Jul 16, 2019

dnd4vr said:
So an interesting thing happened in our game yesterday. One of the characters was killed by a vampire and had her maximum hit points reduced to 0 by the bite. A couple rounds later (vampire defeated), our bard with Revivify tried it and the DM ruled it failed (due to her maximum hp at 0). Now it is a race against time as the party has about 20 days (gentle repose) to find a priest to cast Raise Dead.

Our group is wondering will it work? Or is she doomed to remain dead? After all, she is still with maximum hp of 0. She is dead so she can't really rest to recover those hit points. We were thinking maybe we would need a Greater Restoration to restore the maximum hp first and then cast Raise Dead.

I don't know how our DM will rule it so I am thinking of getting compelling argument material in case he rules unfavorably. Thoughts?

My 2¢: revivify should have brought the character back to life with 0 hit points. The 1 hit point of healing would have been lost, and the character’s hit point maximum would still be 0. After that, greater restoration would end the reduction caused by the vampire’s bite, allowing the character to heal.

Blue · Jul 16, 2019

I have a new RAW interpretation I believe holds up. Unfortunately it does not agree with your DM's ruling so far.

1. Just having 0 HPs means the character starts making death saves. There are a few circumstances where it could also mean death - disintegrate, took massive damage, etc. But those are exceptions - 0 HP is not death. Three failed death saves or another killing effect is death.

2. The Vampire's Bite has a special effect triggered when if the bite brings you to 0 HPs, it kills you immediately. This is worded as a trigger, not an ongoing effect. So that can kill a character, but not re-kill one.

3. Revivify should therefore work as it says. Unfortunately, it will return the character to their maximum of 0 HPs so they will immediately start making death saves. They can't be healed up to 1 HP (the classic way to stabilize), but there are many methods to make someone stable at 0 HPs such as the Spare the Dying cantrip or a Wisdom (Medicine) check.

4. At that point a long rest (specific to vampire bite) or a greater restoration (per source of HP max reduction) will return the to positive HPs. Perhaps more ways depending on how the rest were drained.

This avoids all of the issues we've had back and forth, following the rules.

Ristamar · Jul 16, 2019

Blue said:
I have a new RAW interpretation I believe holds up. Unfortunately it does not agree with your DM's ruling so far.

1. Just having 0 HPs means the character starts making death saves. There are a few circumstances where it could also mean death - disintegrate, took massive damage, etc. But those are exceptions - 0 HP is not death. Three failed death saves or another killing effect is death.

2. The Vampire's Bite has a special effect triggered when if the bite brings you to 0 HPs, it kills you immediately. This is worded as a trigger, not an ongoing effect. So that can kill a character, but not re-kill one.

3. Revivify should therefore work as it says. Unfortunately, it will return the character to their maximum of 0 HPs so they will immediately start making death saves. They can't be healed up to 1 HP (the classic way to stabilize), but there are many methods to make someone stable at 0 HPs such as the Spare the Dying cantrip or a Wisdom (Medicine) check.

4. At that point a long rest (specific to vampire bite) or a greater restoration (per source of HP max reduction) will return the to positive HPs. Perhaps more ways depending on how the rest were drained.

This avoids all of the issues we've had back and forth, following the rules.

I believe that's all correct except for the first part of #4. A character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the long rest to gain its benefits.

Blue · Jul 16, 2019

Ristamar said:
I believe that's all correct except for the first part of #4. A character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the long rest to gain its benefits.

Except that regaining the maximum HPs is not a function of a benefit of a long rest (which requires 1 HP), rather it's the function of the Vampire's Bite where they come back after a long rest is taken. You can definitely take a long rest, even if you don't gain benefits due to having less than 1 HP.

Hriston · Jul 16, 2019

Blue said:
Except that regaining the maximum HPs is not a function of a benefit of a long rest (which requires 1 HP), rather it's the function of the Vampire's Bite where they come back after a long rest is taken. You can definitely take a long rest, even if you don't gain benefits due to having less than 1 HP.

I would say that ending the reduction caused by the vampire’s bite is a *benefit* of a long rest. My reading is that finishing a long rest is the same as gaining its benefits, and that you can do neither unless you have at least 1 hit point when you start the rest.

jaelis · Jul 16, 2019

Ending the vampire's max hp reduction sounds like a benefit to me too.

Blue · Jul 16, 2019

Hriston said:
I would say that ending the reduction caused by the vampire’s bite is a *benefit* of a long rest. My reading is that finishing a long rest is the same as gaining its benefits, and that you can do neither unless you have at least 1 hit point when you start the rest.

You are conflating the specifically laid out benefits of a long rest, with a benefit that happens because a long rest has passed. They are not the same.

The benefits of a long rest are clearly laid out in the PHB on page 186. The vampire's bite is not part of that.

Rather the description of the max HP reduction for the vampire has a condition for when it returns. "The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest." Absolutely clear language. Did you finish a long rest? Then the reduction is no longer continuing.

Oofta · Jul 16, 2019

Blue said:
You are conflating the specifically laid out benefits of a long rest, with a benefit that happens because a long rest has passed. They are not the same.

The benefits of a long rest are clearly laid out in the PHB on page 186. The vampire's bite is not part of that.

Rather the description of the max HP reduction for the vampire has a condition for when it returns. "The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest." Absolutely clear language. Did you finish a long rest? Then the reduction is no longer continuing.

The problem is the interpretation of what the PHB means when states under Long Rest "a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits".

Did they really have a long rest if they can't gain any benefits from it? Note that I'm not disagreeing with you, I'd certainly allow it. Dying is enough of a penalty in and of itself.

jaelis · Jul 16, 2019

Blue said:
The benefits of a long rest are clearly laid out in the PHB on page 186. The vampire's bite is not part of that.

I don't think there is any reason to conclude that the benefits listed in the PHB are an exclusive list. For instance, that section doesn't say anything about recovering spell slots, but I guess you would not allow someone to recover spells if they started the long rest at 0 hp?

Hriston · Jul 16, 2019

Blue said:
You are conflating the specifically laid out benefits of a long rest, with a benefit that happens because a long rest has passed. They are not the same.

The benefits of a long rest are clearly laid out in the PHB on page 186. The vampire's bite is not part of that.

Rather the description of the max HP reduction for the vampire has a condition for when it returns. "The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest." Absolutely clear language. Did you finish a long rest? Then the reduction is no longer continuing.

My contention is that you can’t finish a long rest unless you had at least 1 hit point when you started it.