D&D 5E Death and 0 Max HP

jaelis · Jul 17, 2019

Well I would say there are still at least two rules-defensible interpretations to the whole thing:
- You could say that the raise dead etc spells take precedence over the vampire effect, and they bring you back with 1 hp.
- You could say the spells bring you back at 0 hp, then you need a restoration to remove the vampire effect.

Of course it is also defensible to say that the exact wording of the rules isn't important, it is the overall picture of how the effects work that we should look at. On that basis you can argue that the vampire's instant-death effect is like a disease which neither revivify nor raise dead remove, and so you die again immediately after the spell is cast.

Oofta · Jul 17, 2019

We know you can only take 1 long rest per 24 hour period, so that's not an issue as far as recovering spells.

As far as whether "you don't gain the benefits" ... meh. It's a ruling that's going to vary from DM to DM. I think that if we're going by strict interpretation, if you couldn't take a long rest at all it should have said so.

Being able get rid of the max HP drain is not a benefit of a long rest, a long rest is a prerequisite for gettting rid of the max HP drain. Which is how I'd rule if it ever came up in a game I'm running, which it hasn't. I've only been DMing since the 70s though so give it time.

Hriston · Jul 17, 2019

Blue said:
Here's the exact wording. Taken from the SRD, though it matches the PHB:

If you note, first there is what you need to do to take a long rest. It talks about times, limits of light and strenouous activity.

Second paragraph is a list of general benefits that apply to all characters.

Third paragraph are exceptions that you can't benefit from more than one long rest per 24-hour period and must have at least 1 HP. Not that you can't long rest, just that when you do you don't gain the benefits in those situations.

So it's pretty clear you can long rest, just that you don't gain the benefits.

Or in other words, you can start a long rest (which is really just an action-declaration, i.e. “This is what my character is going to do for the next eight hours.”), but you just can’t finish it. The thing is, I don’t think a player of an unconscious PC is in any position to say what their character is going to do. Unconsciousness is not sleep. It has its own rules for hit point recovery.

jaelis · Jul 17, 2019

Oofta said:
We know you can only take 1 long rest per 24 hour period, so that's not an issue as far as recovering spells.

I don't think there is any rule saying that, rather it says you can only benefit from one long rest per 24 hours. So I disagree that the "benefits" question is "meh"

Hriston · Jul 17, 2019

WaterRabbit said:
A person can always take a long rest (1 / 24 hours). However, to gain the benefits enumerated, one must have 1 hp. There is nothing preventing taking a long rest at 0 hp.

I find it a little odd that you gloss “benefit from” as “take” in the case of the once per 24 hours restriction, but maintain that the 1 hit point requirement doesn’t prevent you from taking a long rest but only prevents you from benefiting from it. Do you find this as inconsistent as I do?

WaterRabbit said:
Also, you don't seem to understand how trance (i.e., elves) works in game and how unconsciousness works IRL. People don't just stop healing because they are unconscious.

I’m not sure how you think Trance is supposed to work in-game. My understanding is that an elf can enter a state of semi-consciousness for a period of four hours, thereby gaining the benefits of a long rest. If the elf is unconscious because s/he has 0 hit points, then s/he would be unable to enter such a state and could not benefit from a long rest. How do you think it works?

I don’t think RL has much to do with this, but IRL sleep is a state of *altered* consciousness, not unconsciousness (although for game purposes I do use the Unconscious condition for sleep), and as with Trance, it isn’t something a character with 0 hit points can just will themselves to do.

Of course, healing is possible both when asleep and when unconscious due to having 0 hit points, but the rules are different for those two different situations.

Hriston · Jul 17, 2019

jaelis said:
So correct me if I'm wrong, but I would have said that you are unconscious while you sleep? Not that you are necessarily sleeping while unconscious, but you seem to be making the distinction here differently than I would.

I think the main distinction for game purposes is between unconscious due to having 0 hit points and unconscious due to being asleep. Technically, sleep is a state of altered consciousness, rather than unconsciousness, but because Trance is called out as a semi-conscious state, I use the Unconscious condition for both asleep and knocked out. The distinction is important because while sleeping or trancing is a requirement of taking a long rest, being knocked out at 0 hit points is not and actually prohibits one from taking or getting any benefit from a long rest despite any superfluous resemblance it may have to sleep.

Blue · Jul 17, 2019

Hriston said:
Or in other words, you can start a long rest (which is really just an action-declaration, i.e. “This is what my character is going to do for the next eight hours.”), but you just can’t finish it.

No, your summary is off the mark. What I had said was that the PHB points out what you need to do and not do, but that even if you do those ("finish it") you still won't get any benefit from it under certain circumstances such as doing more than one in a 24 hour period or starting it without at least 1 HP.

Hriston said:
The thing is, I don’t think a player of an unconscious PC is in any position to say what their character is going to do. Unconsciousness is not sleep. It has its own rules for hit point recovery.

This is a new and interesting route to explore. I am unaware of specific rules on what sleep is mechanically in 5e (outside of the unconscious condition), and why they would be incompatible with unconscious. Can you give me a pointer to where you are seeing this?

Hriston · Jul 17, 2019

WaterRabbit said:
Well the rule does limit you to one long rest per 24-hour period. Even if it didn't, you wouldn't be much use as a wizard if you took three 8 hour naps as you will have slept all day. So at most you could take two and still cast spells. But since you are a wizard, arcane recovery seems to be just as good. Next you will be suggesting that your coffee lock should be able to take 24 short rests per day.

The rule you’re citing limits you to gaining the benefits of a long rest only once per day, just like the other rule that prohibits you from gaining the benefits of a long rest when you have 0 hit points. If despite that rule, you could take and finish a long rest whenever you had eight hours available, then a wizard would regain all his/her spent spell slots upon finishing that rest and could do so multiple times per day.

Hriston · Jul 17, 2019

Blue said:
No, your summary is off the mark. What I had said was that the PHB points out what you need to do and not do, but that even if you do those ("finish it") you still won't get any benefit from it under certain circumstances such as doing more than one in a 24 hour period or starting it without at least 1 HP.

I was trying to draw attention to the fact that this interpretation, that you can “finish” a long rest without gaining its benefits, leads one to the conclusion that a wizard can recover all his/her spent spell slots or the victim of a vampire bite end the reduction to his/her hit point maximum more than once per day or when at 0 hit points.

Blue said:
This is a new and interesting route to explore. I am unaware of specific rules on what sleep is mechanically in 5e (outside of the unconscious condition), and why they would be incompatible with unconscious. Can you give me a pointer to where you are seeing this?

I think it’s right there in the long rest rules. You need to sleep (or trance) in order to take a long rest, but you can’t benefit if you have 0 hit points. Therefore having the Unconscious condition due to sleep is distinct from having the Unconscious condition due to 0 hit points.

Maxperson · Jul 18, 2019

Blue said:
Incorrect. You die if a vampire bite reduces your max HPs to 0. There is no ongoing effect.

So you're saying that the raised PC doesn't have a max hit points of 0 that was caused by the necrotic damage reducing it to 0?

There is nothing in the description of the vampire's bite to distinguish between someone who remained alive, and someone who was brought back.

This is an obvious corner case man. They didn't consider this.

As a matter of fact, we have pretty strong circumstantial evidence that this works just fine if you are brought back. Consider the case you didn't address - where a character is drained by a vampire, killed due to normal HP loss and three failed death saves, and then revivified. I think everyone expects that to work. There's nothing in the description of the vampire's bite to support your claim that the long rest portion only applies to characters who remained alive.

This is a pretty blatant False Equivalence. Being drained to an amount of max hit points greater than 0 and then dying is completely different from dying when max hit points reaches 0. Of course Revivify will work. The PC doesn't have max hit points of ZERO.