D&D 5E Finesse rebalance

Remathilis · Jul 16, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Not enough time at present to read through the thread, so my apologies if I am repeating anything others have already said.

We already house-rule all bonus damage comes from Strength, regardless of the weapon type with the exception of loading weapons, which never receive a bonus to damage. This fixed finesse for us. We also added rules for light and heavy weapons (light weapons do half STR mod and heavy to 1.5 x STR mod, both round down). We removed two-handed and all heavy weapons are two-handed by default (most already were anyway). Ranged weapons always require two hands, regardless (for firing and loading), but thrown weapons are always one-handed.

I don't mind the new Fighting Style, but it seems a bit much like a strange combo of Dueling, Defenseive Duelist, and Dual Wielding, ya know? In a non-feat game I am sure you could write such a style that would work better IMO.

If I think of anything I will certainly contribute!

It might have been faster just to say "in my campaign, everyone uses greatswords and nothing else."

Tony Vargas · Jul 16, 2019

Flamestrike said:
2) In games with feats... due to Sharpshooter (i.e. on characters that dont even use Finessable melee weapons)?

Sharpshooters'd use finesse weapons as melee backup. The way STR characters use heavy thrown weapons as ranged backup.

Which, I think, illustrates the issue. Heavy thrown weapons are a pretty serious downgrade from archery. Rapiers, as the OP points out, are not a downgrade from longswords, really, at all.

Those guys gt single stat to hit and damage for melee and ranged spell attacks and no-one blinks an eye.

This is D&D. Magic is supposed to be just better.

Flamestrike said:
Will you be imposing a similar rule forcing Spell Casters to use Int for Spell Attack rolls (spell power), Wisdom for Spell save DC's (will power) and Charisma (force of will) for Spell damage...

Not the worst idea I've ever heard.

Umbran · Jul 16, 2019

The last game I ran, I did have the common problem - the rogue, with better Initiative, similar AC, and high damage from sneak attack, left the party paladin feeling a tad... unimportant in combat.

Next D&D game I run, I may simply remove the Dex modifier from damage from Finesse. I am not sure it needs whole fighting styles and such to then make up for it.

Psyzhran2357 · Jul 16, 2019

Umbran said:
The last game I ran, I did have the common problem - the rogue, with better Initiative, similar AC, and high damage from sneak attack, left the party paladin feeling a tad... unimportant in combat.

Next D&D game I run, I may simply remove the Dex modifier from damage from Finesse. I am not sure it needs whole fighting styles and such to then make up for it.

Isn't that more an issue with how consistently Rogues can nova with Sneak Attack? They's only be doing an average of 1 less DPR if they were going ranged with shortbow and the exact same DPR as the rapier with the light crossbow.

DND_Reborn · Jul 16, 2019

Remathilis said:
It might have been faster just to say "in my campaign, everyone uses greatswords and nothing else."

Actually, no one does.

Flamestrike · Jul 16, 2019

Umbran said:
The last game I ran, I did have the common problem - the rogue, with better Initiative, similar AC, and high damage from sneak attack, left the party paladin feeling a tad... unimportant in combat.

Level 5 Rogue. 1 attack (rapier) at +7 dealing 3d6+1d8+4 [19] damage (presuming adjacent PC to trigger sneak attack) = around 19 damage.

Level 5 Paladin. 2 attacks (Greatsword) at +7 dealing 4d6+8 damage -re'roll 1s and 2s = around 25 damage.

The Paladin also has roughly 6 x smites and/or smite spells, 3 x divine channels (including either +Cha to hit and damage or advantage to hit), and damage buffs from +1d4 radiant to every hit, or Hunters mark from V-Pal.

Paladin AC should be 18. Rogue AC should be 16.

No feats here, but if allowed, there is better feat support for the Greatsword (GWM's power attack and cleave) than the Rapier. Again, I'm not sure the perception fits the reality.

I dont know. I use feats and MCing, and I see a lot of Strength builds. Literally every single Cleric, Paladin, Barbarian and most Fighters (those that arent built specifically as archers) use Strength.

The only 'Dex to melee' guys I've seen in literally dozens of campaigns over 5 years have been every single Monk, and a Swashbuckler/ Battlemaster with TWF and Rogues.

Every Ranger barring 1 I have seen has been ranged, and the 1 ranger that was melee was a Tortle TWF Strength guy.

Charlaquin · Jul 16, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Level 5 Rogue. 1 attack (rapier) at +7 dealing 3d6+1d8+4 [19] damage (presuming adjacent PC to trigger sneak attack) = around 19 damage.

Level 5 Paladin. 2 attacks (Greatsword) at +7 dealing 4d6+8 damage -re'roll 1s and 2s = around 25 damage.

The smart rogue uses dual shortswords in melee rather than a rapier unless they're going Arcane Trickster and need the off-hand for spellcasting components. That's 5d6+4 damage, for around 21.5 damage per round - still not as much as the paladin can dish out, but it's pretty close. The paladin also loses half that damage (for around 12.5) if he misses one attack, whereas the rogue only loses 1d6 (for around 18 damage). Heck, if the rouge lands the first hit, they can spend their bonus action on one of their Cunning Action options instead of blowing it on a chance at a few extra points of damage. Even assuming the paladin does land both hits and the rogue lands the first one and Disengages or something, that's a tradeoff of 7 DPR, 2 AC, and -4-5 athletics for 1,455 gold, +4-5 Initiative, +4-5 stealth and no disadvantage, +4-5 acrobatics, +4-5 sleight of hand, +4-5 thieves's tools all before proficiency/expertise. I'd say the paladin's getting the raw end of the deal here.

Flamestrike said:
The Paladin also has roughly 6 x smites and/or smite spells, 3 x divine channels (including either +Cha to hit and damage or advantage to hit), and damage buffs from +1d4 radiant to every hit, or Hunters mark from V-Pal.

Sure, but the Paladin still gets all of that if they go Dex instead of Str, which is IMO the smarter choice.

Flamestrike said:
No feats here, but if allowed, there is better feat support for the Greatsword (GWM's power attack and cleave) than the Rapier. Again, I'm not sure the perception fits the reality.

If we're adding in Feats, the rogue can take Dual Wielder and get two rapiers instead of two shortswords and close the AC gap, or Crossbow Expert and use a hand crossbow, allowing them to transition seamlessly between melee and ranged.

Flamestrike said:
I dont know. I use feats and MCing, and I see a lot of Strength builds. Literally every single Cleric, Paladin, Barbarian and most Fighters (those that arent built specifically as archers) use Strength.

And I allow both feats and MCing and I see a lot more Dex builds than Strength. Every single rogue, monk, ranger, most fighters and paladins (those that aren't built specifically as great weapon masters), every bladelock, every bladesinger wizard, and even some clerics and barbarians use Dexterity.

Flamestrike said:
The only 'Dex to melee' guys I've seen in literally dozens of campaigns over 5 years have been every single Monk, and a Swashbuckler/ Battlemaster with TWF and Rogues.

Every Ranger barring 1 I have seen has been ranged, and the 1 ranger that was melee was a Tortle TWF Strength guy.

It's very strange to me that you draw a line between "Dex to melee guys" and ranged guys. Any Dex-based character can do both with no penalty whatsoever.

Xeviat · Jul 16, 2019

Charlaquin said:
It's very strange to me that you draw a line between "Dex to melee guys" and ranged guys. Any Dex-based character can do both with no penalty whatsoever.

I've always felt like it should take more time to be switching from melee to a ranged projectile weapon vs. switching from melee to a thrown weapon. A bow user could draw a weapon and hold their bow in their off-hand, but then they don't get the benefit of a shield (anyone else have groups that sundered bows as a typical strategy in 3E?). The rules kind of don't differentiate item manipulation but that is another point to consider.

Umbran · Jul 16, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Level 5 Rogue. 1 attack (rapier) at +7 dealing 3d6+1d8+4 [19] damage (presuming adjacent PC to trigger sneak attack) = around 19 damage.

Level 5 Paladin. 2 attacks (Greatsword) at +7 dealing 4d6+8 damage -re'roll 1s and 2s = around 25 damage.

The Paladin also has roughly 6 x smites and/or smite spells, 3 x divine channels (including either +Cha to hit and damage or advantage to hit), and damage buffs from +1d4 radiant to every hit, or Hunters mark from V-Pal.

Paladin AC should be 18. Rogue AC should be 16.

Your analysis has too many assumptions to be useful to me, but thank you for trying.