D&D 5E Finesse rebalance

Blue · Jul 15, 2019

In another thread there was an aside about rapiers, with part of it being:

doctorbadwolf said:
Does it bother you how perfect they are?

So I started to write up a serious reply about how it's not that they were perfect, but that others were not:

Blue said:
if any of it bothered me, it would be how imperfect a bunch of non-finesse weapons are.

Dagger as a simple, light, finesse weapon is d4. We're not going down from there, d4 is our base.

A martial light finesse weapon is the Short Sword, which averages 1 point more on a hit. Fine. A rapier is a martial finesse - no longer light - and it does 1 point more than the short sword. All good. These are properly balanced against each other, and using the d4 as a minimum point they are anchored against the minimum so they can't drop down lower.

Therefore the issue isn't with the rapier, it's that the longswords and other martial 1H weapons aren't d10. It seemed like they tried to balance finesse d8 and versatile d8, but versatile is so situational while finesse is such a game changer.

First thing I realized is that I was derailing a thread, so I didn't post it. The second thing is that the comment about how finesse is such a game changer compared to other keywords has a lot of truth in it.

So I was thinking about a reversion to a mechanic from an earlier edition, and then some 5e flourishes on it.

Finesse becomes that you use DEX or STR to attack. Damage is still STR. This weakens DEX as a do-all ability score and makes finesse less of a game changer out of the gate.

So a default DEX-based rapier is inferior to a default STR-based longsword.

Then we add in a Fighting Style
Swashbuckler: You may use your DEX or STR for damage with all finesse weapons. If you are not holding a shield or non-finesse weapon, you gain +1 AC in light, medium or no armor.

The +1 AC is to bring it up the the level of the other fighting styles, though it's a bit stepping on the Protection style. Other suggestions welcome.

Rogues and Monks would get either this fighting style (which would boost their AC) or just the use DEX for damage as well, as an additional feature.

A feat would also do something similar, probably as a half-feat that also raises DEX.

(Note that if I wanted to make this level of balance, I'd probably also adjust the melee vs. ranfged damage, especially since I did just decrease DEX melee damage but not DEX ranged damage.)

If you think the rapier is too good, would you use this? What does it break? (DEX-clerics?) How can we improve it?

jaelis · Jul 15, 2019

IMO the rapier is a little too good, but I'm OK with the finesse rules in general. So I just say you can't use the rapier with a shield, and that works for me.

Cap'n Kobold · Jul 15, 2019

I would make it a feat, so that Rogues and other classes can pick it up without multiclassing.
Monks don't need it, since they don't use Finesse as such.

Finesse Fighters and similar classes with Fighting styles already have two pretty good ones for Finesse in Duelling and Two-weapon fighting styles.

BookBarbarian · Jul 15, 2019

I actually think the balance is good enough right now, but I might think differently in a Featless game. I also wouldn't make finesse a feat, as feats are optional rules.

Xeviat · Jul 15, 2019

I haven't found an issue with Finesse in my games. Finesse Fighters and Paladins are taking a penalty to AC by not wearing heavy armor. Rogues and Rangers are balanced around finesse.

The Crimson Binome · Jul 15, 2019

A weak character should never hit harder than a strong character, all else being equal. In my opinion, you could just have finesse weapons add Strength to damage instead of Dex, and leave everything else as-is. Maybe we'd actually get a character with decent Strength and Dexterity, once in a while.

Charlaquin · Jul 15, 2019

I’m a big supporter of Finesse as Dex to hit but not to damage, at least on paper. I haven’t tried it in an actual game yet, but in theory I like it a lot.

UngeheuerLich · Jul 15, 2019

Only thing I don't like is that wizards rather use daggers than a staff and goblins don't use spears anymore.

I don't have a solution though.
Maybe adding abilities like martial arts to all classes that allow the use of finesse weapons with dexterity seems appropriate.
To make it fair I might be inclined to make all weapons use dex or str to hit and str to damage. I might allow half dexterity bonus rounded down instead of str to damage for finesse weapons if you only wield a light weapon in the off hand.
But this might be tol complicated.

Tony Vargas · Jul 15, 2019

Blue said:
Therefore the issue isn't with the rapier, it's that the longswords and other martial 1H weapons aren't d10. It seemed like they tried to balance finesse d8 and versatile d8, but versatile is so situational while finesse is such a game changer.

So, maybe piercing just needs to be a lot worse than slashing in some way? Because that seems like a difference, there, too. (Or the versatile blades need to be pierce & slashing, vs the finesse blades being piercing?) Or...

…/clearly/ what's missing is ::drumroll:: 1e AD&D style Weapon vs Armor modifiers! Yep. If finesse weapons were good vs light armor and sucked vs heavy, while versatile weapons got generally favorable mods, it'd all balance neatly (OK, messily) out!