D&D 5E Finesse rebalance

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
d. They tend to climb, jump, swim and other Athletics abilities.
e. They opt to wear heavy armor
f. They push, shove, trip, or grapple.

I've yet to see a Strength fighter that is truly suboptimal. The biggest concern is that Dex saves are more prevalent than Str saves, and Initiative is keyed off Dex. That said, the only place I see 8 Str/18 Dex fighters is Char-Op boards and theorycrafted DPS spreadsheets.
By 5e’s rules as written, any character can climb at half their speed outside of conditions that would make doing so both reasonably likely to fail and dangerous for doing so, and jump up to their strength score feet in length or 3 + their strength mod feet in height (or half as much if they can’t get a 10+ foot running start) without a check, so d is not usually a significant concern, though it’s worth asking your DM how they plan to handle running, jumping, and climbing if you plan to dump strength. And even if they do house-buff Athletics, that’s one skill vs. the 3 Dex applies to, and this difference only gets more significant if they use the Skills With Different Ability Scores optional rule. Heavy armor gives you a grand total of +1 AC vs light armor at the cost of 1,425 gp or Medium armor at the cost of 750gp (or equal AC if you take Medium Armor Master) if you keep up with your Dex ASIs, so e is equivalent to one ASI worth of both AC and damage (since non-Finesse weapons tend to be 1 damage die higher than finesse weapons) - not completely insignificant, but well worth the difference in Initiatives and Skills. Pushing, shoving, tripping, and grappling is generally less effective than killing your opponents one or more rounds faster, so I would file what you call f under c.

Maybe you don’t see many characters that dump Str and buff Dex in actual play, in which case it makes sense that rebalancing Finesse wouldn’t really be worthwhile for you. Personally, I see far, far more such builds than I see pump Str in actual play, and the builds I do see pump it tend to keep Dex at 10-12, so for me it well worthwhile.
 

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Arilyn

Hero
I recently made a human wizard. She has a 16 Dex and 14 Int. I focussed more on dex because I'm making a dagger wielding fighter/ wizard, without the need for multiclassing. As a variant human, she took light armour proficiency, which also let me up her dex by one point. She wields two daggers in combat and has a good AC. Because her Int. is little lower than a typical wizard, she focuses on spells that require no saves, and lives with less known spells in her book. But she doesn't need to waste slot on mage armour. She carries extra daggers and is willing to throw or drop one if she needs a hand free for casting. She does well in combat. She took the abjuration school, which has been a great choice for her. She's got good dex save, good dex skills and those dex boosts for armour class and hitting. I could dip into fighter or rogue, but I kinda like this fighter/ wizard who is actually pure wizard. On the other hand, I'll admit it feels wrong... It shouldn't be this easy. I'm gaming the system! This isn't me! and she has a low str. Didn't I just complain about that??

Ah well, I'm waiting for those magic daggers no one cares about...😊
 

Laurefindel

Legend
Another avenue to explore: what if finesse had a damage value, similar to versatile. For example:

Scimitar 25gp 1d6 slashing 3lbs. Light, finesse (1d6)

Doing this could open the possibility of different damage values.
Scimitar 1d8 slashing, light, finesse (1d6). Or rapier 1d8 finesse (1d6)
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
The problem isn't that that rapiers are too good from a balance perspective; it's that only people who hate Dungeons & Dragons and everything the game stands for choose to use them.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
The problem isn't that that rapiers are too good from a balance perspective; it's that only people who hate Dungeons & Dragons and everything the game stands for choose to use them.
What do rapiers have to do with caster supremacy, Monty Haul, treasure hunting, pixel-bitching, 5MWD, magic-item Xmass trees, Vancian spell-grenades, d20s, Fruedian psionics, 10' poles, white-room DPR calculations, cursed magic itens, 30mm lead pewter figures labeled 25mm, rules lawyers, Killer DMs, home-invasion-robbery, LFQW, name recognition, 20-level builds, spiked everything, plant/reptile boobs, perverting the intent of Wish, mapping, teen suicide, Devil worship, and sexism?

...

Oh, I get it: nothing.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
What do rapiers have to do with caster supremacy, Monty Haul, treasure hunting, pixel-bitching, 5MWD, magic-item Xmass trees, Vancian spell-grenades, d20s, Fruedian psionics, 10' poles, white-room DPR calculations, cursed magic itens, 30mm lead pewter figures labeled 25mm, rules lawyers, Killer DMs, home-invasion-robbery, LFQW, name recognition, 20-level builds, spiked everything, plant/reptile boobs, perverting the intent of Wish, mapping, teen suicide, Devil worship, and sexism?

...

Oh, I get it: nothing.
No, you were onto the right answer: people get emotional when it comes to D&D even though once in a while the game itself is blameless; they're only projecting their own insecurities and prejudice.

In other words, there's absolutely nothing special about a rapier discussion that's different from discussing Monty Haul, reptile boobs or Satanism.

It's just one more thing to get riled up about.
 

Is Dex to hit in melee any good?

I mean when it comes to Melee damage the main offenders are:

1) GWM
2) PAM (and GWM!)
3) Barbarians
4) Paladin smites (And Paladins need Charisma, Con and Strength, and get heavy armor meaning they invariably dump Dex)

I've never known 'Rapier' to be any sort of 'go-to' for damage builds. I mean Rogues often use one (unless TWF) but so what?

The advantage of Strength is you get to dump Dex and wear heavy armor. Of the 'big three' Save stats, Dex is the easiest to dump as failing a save rarely (if ever) imposes a nasty condition (just usually more damage).

Who is having a problem with 'Dex builds' exactly?
 

Like seriously.

Give me 4 fighters. At 5th level - 3 are Dex Fighters (defence style) using rapiers and sheilds. (15+Dex AC). AC 19, 1d8+4 damage (8.5 average), +7 to hit, 2 attacks, +4 Initiative. No feat exists to make rapiers better; shield master might be an option?

The 4th is a Plate wearing Greatsword guy (same style). AC also 19, 2d6+4 damage (11 average), 2 attacks, +7 to hit, Power attack and Cleave via GWM, -1 initiative.

The first 3 guys better keep a close look at encumbrance also. Strength dumped to 8 = 40lbs max. Studded leather, a shield and rapier = 21 lbs already. Throw in a ranged weapon, dagger and ammunition and you're pushing 30lbs before adding any adventuring equipment.

Play those 4 together and the Greatsword guy will stand out from the others in a good way.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Is Dex to hit in melee any good?

I mean when it comes to Melee damage the main offenders are:

1) GWM
2) PAM (and GWM!)
3) Barbarians
4) Paladin smites (And Paladins need Charisma, Con and Strength, and get heavy armor meaning they invariably dump Dex)
Dex characters can take Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, so 1 and 2 are a wash. Dex-based Barbarians and Paladins are at least as effective as Str-based ones.

I've never known 'Rapier' to be any sort of 'go-to' for damage builds. I mean Rogues often use one (unless TWF) but so what?
I have, so it’s worth considering a house-rule to make them not an objectively better choice than longswords.

The advantage of Strength is you get to dump Dex and wear heavy armor. Of the 'big three' Save stats, Dex is the easiest to dump as failing a save rarely (if ever) imposes a nasty condition (just usually more damag
Or, to rephrase that, the advantage of Dex is you get to dump Str and wear light armor. For the low price of 1 AC, you save yourself 1,455 gp and get +6 to Initiative and one of the big three saves.

Who is having a problem with 'Dex builds' exactly?
A lot of DMs, myself included. If you’re not, bulky for you. What are you doing in this thread, telling people who are having a problem with it that they’re wrong?
 

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