Experiences running Shadow of the Demon Lord?

Does anyone have any experiences running or playing Shadow of the Demon Lord? If so, what are your thoughts and feedback? What did you like or dislike? How does it feel? Ease of use? Points of contention? Etc.

I have been toying with using SotDL for a homebrew, though gutting its grimdark edgelord flavor for a more standard flair. (Supposedly Robert Schwalb is planning on releasing a version of SotDL meant to be a love letter to Gygax and Greyhawk - Shadow of the Mad Wizard - but I have no idea how far off that is.)

Been playing in a campaign for a while. My takeaways:

-Doesn't seem really tuned for super long term play with how lethal combat is and how the negative effects stack up quickly and easily. I would recommend no more than 7-8 sessions.

-On balance, a strong warrior character will be better than a strong magical character as many spells require saves, which is a static number and is thus easier to hit for higher level monsters.

All that being said I am also interested in that other Schwalb project as it may address my main problems with SotDL.

eyeheartawk said:

Been playing in a campaign for a while. My takeaways:

-Doesn't seem really tuned for super long term play with how lethal combat is and how the negative effects stack up quickly and easily. I would recommend no more than 7-8 sessions.

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Is that perhaps intentional given the tone of the setting? Recommendations for adjusting that? Or do you know of any alternate rules among his MANY supplements that address this?

-On balance, a strong warrior character will be better than a strong magical character as many spells require saves, which is a static number and is thus easier to hit for higher level monsters.

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It seems like this could be fairly easily adjusted so that the save dc equals the casting stat (i.e., Intellect or Will), but I am not sure how that would impact balance since I am not sure how high stats typically go at upper levels.

I have heard that SotDL provides a lot of alternate rules, but the prolific nature of Schwalb's publishing makes it difficult to no where to begin searching.

But otherwise, is it fun? How did you like it compared to other similar games (e.g., D&D, PF, etc.)?

Is that perhaps intentional given the tone of the setting? Recommendations for adjusting that? Or do you know of any alternate rules among his MANY supplements that address this?

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I'm sure it is intentional. All of this is to intrinsically mechanically tie to the oppressive tone of the setting, which makes sense. As far as I'm aware none of the many supplements offers a less brutal experience. I remember reading somewhere that Rob Schwalb himself has never even attempted to run a long term campaign in this game. Which makes me think that was never a design consideration as well. So, you know, don't expect to run a year long campaign out of this.

It seems like this could be fairly easily adjusted so that the save dc equals the casting stat (i.e., Intellect or Will), but I am not sure how that would impact balance since I am not sure how high stats typically go at upper levels.

I have heard that SotDL provides a lot of alternate rules, but the prolific nature of Schwalb's publishing makes it difficult to no where to begin searching.

But otherwise, is it fun? How did you like it compared to other similar games (e.g., D&D, PF, etc.)?

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We played around with it being tied to your spellcasting attribute modifier and adjusting the saves that way, but honestly you're still being outclassed by monsters at that point.

There is a TON of stuff out there and honestly I'm just as lost as you. Most of the stuff is location based (a book on the Desolation, for example) and will contain maybe a new race and some spells germane to the region. I think the best bang for the buck that also makes you feel like you're not missing anything too major would be to get the core book, the two companions and that big spell book that's coming out eventually. That's all you would realistically ever really need.

The game is fun. The thing is, I'm not sure I would play it again if given the choice. It's obvious setting and tonal inspiration is WFRP, which I would rather play as you get deeper and more impactful decisions to make at leveling and even though you're often outclassed by what your'e facing in that game it doesn't feel as necessarily pointless in some attempts as it can in SotDL with like, 3 banes stacked on you (which can happen relatively easily). On the other hand, as a short term fantasy type game that isn't made to support long term play per se but gets to the big cool stuff super quick, I'm not sure why you would play this over say, DCC RPG.

On a complexity level I would say it's at roughly a 5e level. There are a number of conditions to keep track of and just like in 5e most ultimately impose boons or banes (in lieu of advantage/disadvantage). I would say SotDL offers slightly less variety and interesting options to choose from at leveling than 5e does, and 5e doesn't really shine in this department over previous editions (Not saying that's good or bad, but just trying to deliver a sense of scale using relative terms).

Aldarc said:

Is that perhaps intentional given the tone of the setting? Recommendations for adjusting that? Or do you know of any alternate rules among his MANY supplements that address this?

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Forbidden Rules is the supplement that has the most variant rules in it...might be something in there.

eyeheartawk said:

As far as I'm aware none of the many supplements offers a less brutal experience. I remember reading somewhere that Rob Schwalb himself has never even attempted to run a long term campaign in this game. Which makes me think that was never a design consideration as well. So, you know, don't expect to run a year long campaign out of this.

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That would not be the plan for it. I don't think that most campaigns last that long anyway.

We played around with it being tied to your spellcasting attribute modifier and adjusting the saves that way, but honestly you're still being outclassed by monsters at that point.

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Nerf the monsters? I read elsewhere that the frighten/corruption/etc. rules were meant to balance higher level parties. If it's too much, in your experience, then maybe take it out? I don't plan on the grmidark insanity stuff anyway.

The game is fun. The thing is, I'm not sure I would play it again if given the choice. It's obvious setting and tonal inspiration is WFRP, which I would rather play as you get deeper and more impactful decisions to make at leveling and even though you're often outclassed by what your'e facing in that game it doesn't feel as necessarily pointless in some attempts as it can in SotDL with like, 3 banes stacked on you (which can happen relatively easily). On the other hand, as a short term fantasy type game that isn't made to support long term play per se but gets to the big cool stuff super quick, I'm not sure why you would play this over say, DCC RPG.

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I have a copy of DCC, and I can't say that I was impressed or inspired to run it like I was with SotDL. So maybe different strokes for different folks?

Question: If you have 3 banes, they don't stack right? But it's likelier though that you are getting -6 to the roll when trying to roll a d20 to beat 10?

On a complexity level I would say it's at roughly a 5e level. There are a number of conditions to keep track of and just like in 5e most ultimately impose boons or banes (in lieu of advantage/disadvantage). I would say SotDL offers slightly less variety and interesting options to choose from at leveling than 5e does, and 5e doesn't really shine in this department over previous editions (Not saying that's good or bad, but just trying to deliver a sense of scale using relative terms).

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One of the appeals to me, IMHO, is the class and magic structure. I like magical traditions, which largely dispenses of divine/arcane magic. So it's easier for me to say, "Okay, well if you belong to Temple X, these are the associated traditions," or "If you are a mage who went to School A, then you would have familiarity with traditions 1, 2, 3, but if you were a mage who went to School B, they typically taught traditions 4, 5, and 6." In this case, I like having less options, since I would like the homebrew setting to reflect more of a precursor to D&D (e.g., Dawnforge).

The first thing to note is that Shadow of the Demon Lord is explicitly created for short campaigns. The typical structure is you gain a level per adventure (an average 4 hour session) and it maxes out at 10. If you're looking for longer term campaigns out of this system you will probably find many design decisions stacked against you.

The second thing to note is that it's incredibly modular. The main lethality in the game comes out at some creatures who have instant death effects if they take you to 0 hp. Simply take those out and it goes back to their death save mechanic.

Also for modularity, the grimdark setting is easy to remove. Most of the classes exist in a space of fantasy steampunk. If you take out a couple pf schools of magic and don't use some of the more gross monsters then it's fine. You can remove the corruption and insanity mechanics, but i like to have them as they reinforce heroic behaviour (e.g killing an innocent gives an automatic corruption point) and models fear effects (getting overloaddd and going temporarily out of your mind). You can just change some of the table effects for the two and they work fine.

Lastly i woukd put at a way more streamlined 5e. I find it much easier to run. I would also argue that there are more choices in shadow than 5e, they are just represented by more classes to choose from at level 3 and 7.

[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] you just take the higher boons and banes so correct. Classes start getting boons through class abilities and spells as they level up, so they are much more resilient to fighting a horrifying creature in the dark while poisoned for example. And in ideal situations, they'll wipe the floor with minor foes.

And yes the modularity is the main thing for me.

Perhaps you want to create a gnomish temple to the sciences? You could make a priest with technomancy, arcana and time traditions.

You can have a wizard who trained in an academy of the elements who learn air fire water and earth traditions, and another wizard in the party who trained in a rand al'thor style martial academy learning battle, protection and destruction traditions.

It's the first game I've seen where that is really easy to do.