D&D 2E 2e, the most lethal edition?

Sacrosanct

Legend
After all of the discussions, I think there is some movement in how I view which edition was the most lethal RAW

Before:

2e<<b/x<<1e/OD&D<<<<3e<<5e<<4e

Now:
2e<B/x</1e/OD&D<3e<<<5e<4e

That is, still 2e, but only slightly over the other three which are almost equal. 3e a bit more lethal than originally thought, with the gap between 1e and 3e smaller than between 3e and 5e

4e still remains as least lethal because I haven’t hardly played it so I’m relying on others’ feedback, which has been a lot of “you had to try hard to kill a PC in 4e”

Of course, I imagine opinions will vary
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Not from the DM himself which is what we were discussing... a DM finding themselves now able to cut loose instead of faking it. This meant many 4e DMs were reporting more player kills than they ever had with any edition previously


Yeh in a world of D&D caliber magic that isnt the guy standing in front its often the one with the pointy hat

Party sizes were larger they often thought you would have a second rank of pikemen behind the Frontline. And you would bait people into 10' wide passages.

I don't think many people okay 2E RAW phb only doing 1E adventures. If you do yeah it's harder than 1E.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think one of the things you guys are forgetting when comparing save or die spells/effects/etc. vs. saves and other "lethal rules" is that in 1e and 2e you very often died before any of that came into play. Rolling for hit points at 1st level meant that you often had PC deaths and TPKs in the first encounter you came across as most hits would knock out even a fighter who didn't get a lucky hit point roll.

3e's max hit points meant that you were far more likely to survive 1st and 2nd level, which skyrocketed your chances of survival compared to prior editions.

I played under many different 3e DMs. Some more challenging than others, and yet I had very, very few PCs die. I had more 1e PCs die than I can remember, often multiple PCs a game session. 2e was much less deadly for some reason, but still far more deadly than 3e.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Wow! That is bad. "Just one freaking time it would be nice to come home with the dishes already done!"

I think this is one of those perception is greater than reality moments, and wives just SEEM to be 10'. Whatever you do, though, please don't tell my wife I said that. :eek:
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Party sizes were larger they often thought you would have a second rank of pikemen behind the Frontline.

Row of pikeman... LOL you must have been gaming with entirely different people than me.. never saw once in my gaming career a row of pikeman in the party that sounds so heroic like the fighters are incompetent buffoons oh yeah they were.

The infamous doorway let's play bugs bunny and pop one out so we always have one not everyone was only doing tunnel fighting nor thought it really needed to be the only story...

Row of Pikeman... LOL
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
Row of pikeman... LOL you must have been gaming with entirely different people than me.. never saw once in my gaming career a row of pikeman in the party that sounds so heroic like the fighters are incompetent buffoons oh yeah they were.

Fighters are very good in OSR games. OD&D mentions party sizes of 20, 6 to 8 PCs plus Henchmen also allows for a lot more bodies.

The expectation does seem to skew towards more bodies.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Fighters are very good in OSR games. OD&D mentions party sizes of 20, 6 to 8 PCs plus Henchmen.
Except they needed doorways and extra rows of pikeman to do anything at all apparently AD&D was my first experience and I didnt see in home games or conventions much different sizes of party than I have seen in 3e and in 4e or 5e.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Except they needed doorways and extra rows of pikeman to do anything at all apparently AD&D was my first experience and I didnt see in home games or conventions much different sizes of party than I have seen in 3e and in 4e or 5e.
No parties are similar size. I met a bit if power creep into the game to make up for it. Weapon rules in the RC, or DM allowed UA for 1st Ed, Fighters Handbook 2E.

OSR adventures often have NPCs to rescue often with things like "if equipped NPC may serve as henchmen".
 
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GreyLord

Legend
Here's the thing - the death's door rule isn't presented as optional in 1e, whereas it is in 2e. So this really isn't a case of cherry picking or including the optional rule in 1e but ditching it in 2e.

Death's Door is NOT a 1e optional rule...because it isn't IN 1e.

The rule discussed is AN OPTIONAL rule...so, if one is including THAT optional rule, they should include ALL optional rules from the core 2e as well. (and in truth, I only include it as optional, because a core rule was misinterpreted to work in that fashion, which some DM's did, not that the rule actually was in the DMG anywhere to even be found).

There IS NO rule like that in 1e. The closest you get is the ZERO HIT POINT Rule. This defines that someone who is reduced to EXACTLY Zero HIT Points in 1e is unconscious. The DM has the OPTION To allow this to go down to -3 Hitpoints AS LONG as it was from the same blow that reduced them to zero hitpoints. (-10 is what they can run out of HP after that each round, but if they are reduced lower than -3 HP by any hit, they are dead as per the rules, and that's only if the DM takes that option, core rules without the option is if they are reduced lower than 0 Hitpoints by any blow or hit).

There is NO Death's Door option in 1e. Without the DM's option, it doesn't even go below 0. If you are at exactly 0 Hitpionts after a blow, you are unconscious, otherwise, without a DM's Option...YOU ARE DEAD.

Just because you misinterpreted the rule, does NOT make it a standard rule in the DMG.

However, your misinterpretation was NOT uncommon, hence why the Death's Door option was included in the 2e DMG. Death's door was not the default core rule in 1e OR 2e. The misinterpretation occasionally was (though overall, most groups just ruled that you died at 0 HP in 1e anyways...except the munchkins no one played with, and as such were typically barred from official tournaments and actual official games anyways) utilized, often enough that you see this in 2e.

So, in truth, the Original post was talking about a rule in a way that did not even EXIST in 1e...but instead was talking about a misinterpretation of it (common as that was...as 2e readily can point out). That misinterpretation was normally run just like the 2e optional rule...so...if you are including a misinterpretation of a rule in 1e...rather than the actual rules themselves...a misinterpretation that is NOWHERE discussed in the 1e DMG (if we take the words as explicit, which in 1e sometimes were hard to follow...though in this instance it is pretty clear as it includes the -3 HP from the same blow option for DM's if they desire....and NO MORE than -3 HP) than by default you must include the 2e options.

In that light, Weapon Specialization is 2e core...giving fighters more damage overall...and there are some spells that were tweaked to be a tad more powerful in 2e (for example...stone skin I believe). In addition, more spell options and combinations overall made PC's a tad easier to handle.

I stand by what I said before, ESPECIALLY in light of your misinterpretation of 1e rules...that Any edition 1st - 3rd could be the most deadly edition. IT really depended on your DM and the game they ran as well as how they interpreted the rules and how they ran the game.

Anecdotal experience through the years from when OD&D came out to present would seem to indicate that 1e in how it was typically run in the early 80s was probably the most deadly form of D&D run (whether due to the style of DMing at the time, or rules interpretations, or otherwise), while in general, BX or BECMI D&D when run by experienced groups would be deadliest form of D&D over the long period (several decades).

That said, I've seen very deadly games of 2e where TPKs were common, and I've seen 3e games also follow the same pattern.
 
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