D&D General Use and abuse of an item

Greenfield · Jul 17, 2019

Hey, this involves a 3.5 campaign, though conceptually the ideas may apply to just about any other edition.

My character is a Wizard of 17th level. He just finished crafting a Ring of Telekinesis, which took months of down time, a small fortune and a ton of Exp.

Now that my character has the item though, I'm thinking it's too much: Use of the Telekinesis spell every round means, potentially, doing 15 to 25 dice of damage to any opponent who weighs less than 350 pounds (all on a single touch-attack, no Save), or up to 15 dice of damage per round to larger foes using a normal ranged attack. (Uses caster stat instead of Dex.)

And that's just the combat uses. So grab someone and "Violent Thrust" them up into the air, then let gravity do its thing (Range is Medium, so 100 ft plus 10 feet per caster level, with caster level being 15.)

Or hurl one or more objects at an opponent, doing damage by object weight or weapon type. (Throw Greater Magic Weapon on 50 or so arrows, shuriken etc, and then fling 15 at a time (one per caster level) and do a D3 plus 3 or 4 per hit. (Yeah, arrows do a D3 with this spell, though other weapons do normal damage.)

Now, we're approaching Epic levels, and to be fair our characters are and should be a force to be reckoned with. In game characters like that should be legendary. Still, it seems like power gaming and that isn't our game.

What would you do, as a player or as a game master? Someone gets/crafts an item that the DM approved of, along with the rest of the table, and it turns out to be so easily abused.

I value your insights.

jaelis · Jul 18, 2019

I'm seeing 15d6 per round, which is impressive, using the violent thrust version. How are you getting 25d6?

I think the main limitation is toting a 375 lb object around constantly, but that is certainly within your capacity.

It does seem pretty strong, but then high level 3e wizards are hella strong. If you're looking for a fair nerf, toning it down to a limited number of uses per day is not crazy. Or perhaps a limited number of uses of violent thrust, let you keep the other abilities at will.

Of course, your BAB is not great, so you won't be hitting all that much.

The Crimson Binome · Jul 18, 2019

If I was the DM of the game, I'd be happy that my level 17 wizard player was sticking with the spirit of the rules, instead of trying to pull the sort of shenanigans that the edition is really known for. At that level, anything really scary is going to be immune to falling damage, and I can't imagine how 20d6 damage as a standard action could possibly break anything.

Greenfield · Jul 19, 2019

Hmm. 25 D6 is achieved by simply hoisting a target up to maximum spell range (100 feet +10 per level) and dropping them.

Of course, this all presumes that you're someplace where you can hoist/fling someone that hard/far.

BAB isn't that big an issue for the personal fling, since it's based on a ranged touch attack, and uses the casting stat instead of Dex for the bonus (caster's stat is typically higher than their Dex). While throwing a Cold Iron bowling ball uses normal AC instead of Touch, a 1st level spell (True Strike) solves that problem easily enough.

As for hefting that bowling ball along on the trip, Shrink Item is an easy way to prepare for such an encounter. One could also carry it on a Tensor's Disk, or (as a final resort) you could simply carry it using the Ring of Telekinesis

.

But it isn't the amount of damage I'm concerned about, be it 15 dice or 25, it's the ability to do that every round, without limit.

Wait a moment, I was just looking at the ring in the DMG and it says the caster level is 9th, not 15th. So that drops the per-round damage limit to 9 D6. Suddenly not so broken.

Have to re-think the investment then. With a weight limit of 225 it suddenly seems underpowered for the price... yet still dangerous to give a caster 9D6 of damage per round, pretty much forever...

jasper · Jul 19, 2019

Hmm. I have learn if a weapon/attack/etc is too good, is to ask the player to limit it uses to x per day.

jaelis · Jul 19, 2019

Greenfield said:
Wait a moment, I was just looking at the ring in the DMG and it says the caster level is 9th, not 15th. So that drops the per-round damage limit to 9 D6. Suddenly not so broken.

Yes that is a big difference.

Regarding the flinging, my memory of how we interpreted the spell was that you couldn't launch a creature that high into the air. I think that was based on the fact that if you launch a creature at a surface, it only takes 1d6 damage, so we figured you could only fling it 10 ft. But perhaps that doesn't make sense.

Stalker0 · Jul 19, 2019

10d6 damage, basically a fireball every round to one creature. Honestly seems fine to me...it will be fun for minor engagements but a 17th level wizard has way bigger guns for “real fights”. I say enjoy

Greenfield · Jul 20, 2019

jaelis said:
Yes that is a big difference.

Regarding the flinging, my memory of how we interpreted the spell was that you couldn't launch a creature that high into the air. I think that was based on the fact that if you launch a creature at a surface, it only takes 1d6 damage, so we figured you could only fling it 10 ft. But perhaps that doesn't make sense.

By the spell you can "violent thrust" a target in any direction, up to a total distance of 10 feet per caster level.

Attempting to pick up and carry via "sustained force", they move at a maximum of 20' per round, so using that a caster could slow hoist, over a number of rounds, up to the maximum spell range. At 9th level caster that's 190 feet, or 19 dice of falling damage. That would take 9 rounds though.

Combining the two, however, you could slow hoist them to 100 feet and then Violent Thrust them up to the 190 foot level and get the same result in 5 rounds.

Still, at that point you aren't talking combat. Waaaay too slow.

jaelis · Jul 20, 2019

Greenfield said:
By the spell you can "violent thrust" a target in any direction, up to a total distance of 10 feet per caster level.

Yes I see that, i think we read "toward" as "in the direction of" as opposed to "all the way to." But I can't say that makes perfect sense now.

smetzger · Jul 25, 2019

My wizard I am playing just reached 18th level.

1) that 9d6 is not guaranteed - it depends on environment. spell resistance and saving throw often apply. Plus I believe the SR is based off of CL 9 and the save would be based of Int 15. So, maybe you can injure a flunky or lieutenant but not the BBEG.
9d6 = avg 31.5 and the 15d6 is 52.5 your Barbarian friend should be topping you in one hit, and blow this damage away in a full attack. Much better to haste him then use your ring.

2) If my wizard had one of these he would rarely use it because there are often better options at this level.

3) Plus this takes up a valuable ring slot. I'll stick to my ring or protection and counterspells (with greater dispel magic).

So, all in all I don't think it will break your game. Even if it was 15d6 damage.

I think the bull rush, disarm, grapple, and trip options will be fun and interesting to play rather than doing the straight damage.
Also, out of combat uses will be very high.