D&D 5E Show me how to build a defender....

GlassJaw · Jul 21, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
That point first started getting made 15+ years ago, in 3e forums. The thing that's funny is MMOs came up with "aggro," because they were trying to implement the traditional D&D Fighter role, but didn't have unwritten DMing rules that most monsters just attacked the fighter, most of the time, especially if he made any pretense towards getting in the way.

I guess we could just figure 5e has a DM, and trust him not to have monsters walk by you just because they can. Or, maybe that was some age of innocence, and we can't go home again?

Not sure if you are ranting against something or something in my post...? Because I 100% agree with you. I'm not advocating 5E needs a "grab aggro" mechanic.

Garthanos · Jul 21, 2019

GlassJaw said:
I play D&D under the assumption that the opposition will be monsters and enemies, not the DM.

Your being very hard to hit is not some invisible property If they do not behave differently very quickly then the DM is roleplaying them very badly...

The guy who looks like he might be leaving openings but can take a lot of shots will be the target of choice the entire battle. Even though the DM knows you can soak the crap out of it.
That will take much longer for the monsters to notice

And your idea will make you a bad Defender who is just hard to kill.

Paul Farquhar · Jul 21, 2019

Garthanos said:
Your being very hard to hit is not some invisible property If they do not behave differently very quickly then the DM is roleplaying them very badly...

It depends on the nature of the enemy. Skeletons, golems and other unintelligent foes will keep flailing away however ineffectual their attacks are.

And if the guy who is very hard to hit is physically between the enemy and more vulnerable targets then even intelligent foes might have no choice but to try and go through them. This is the behaviour that MMOs couldn't emulate.

Garthanos · Jul 21, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
It depends on the nature of the enemy. Skeletons, golems and other unintelligent foes will keep flailing away however ineffectual their attacks are.

The exception proves the rule... they might also ignore your attacks and run past so they can get at the more brains behind you not because you are too tough but because more meat is back there.

Paul Farquhar said:
And if the guy who is very hard to hit is physically between the enemy .

Yeh but if you can barely react to one enemy see 5e... watch the others run by to get at the squishy threat with glea. The doorway/choke 5' point solution can under a narrow circumstances enable actual defense.. 10 foot if you do not mind additional goblins after the first swarming your allly.

If that is what you "absolutely need" your ability to protect allies might be very poor. Even with a you cannot run through enemy space freely problem you have made it a "narrow" circumstance for you to be able to defend

Paul Farquhar · Jul 21, 2019

Doorways and chokepoints are pretty ubiquitous in dungeons.

Blue · Jul 21, 2019

I'm fond of the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian from XGtE. You need to be raging and it's only the first hit per turn, but there's no limitations that the marked must stay close to you like the Cavalier - no matter where they move they have disadvantage against everyone else, and the target has resistance against their attacks if it does hit.

Garthanos · Jul 21, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
Doorways and chokepoints are pretty ubiquitous in dungeons.

We had tons of outdoor adventures back in the day I still do including many open arenas and battlefields whose only walls were trees ...heck I think dungeons were actually pretty nonsensical to many DMs.

5 foot door ways for the win I suppose or dead squishies because someone objects to enemies falling for false openings, tricks and taunting and intimidation effects.

Honestly I do not want stories we engage in to be limited in that way.

Garthanos · Jul 21, 2019

Flamestrike said:
The Goading attack maneuver (BM) imposes disadvantage on creatures attacks against anyone other than you.

The Compelled Duel spell (Pal 1) does the same.

Cavalier Fighters get 'marks' that do the same (and trigger a free attack if the ignore).

The Sentinel feat gives you an AoO if they swing at someone other than you.

Swashbuckler Panache also imposes disadvantage on creatures attacks against anyone other than you and stops them from making AoO against anyone else.

Ancestor Barbarian imposes disadvantage on attacks against anyone other than you.

The Crown Paladin gets 'Champion Challenge' divine channel that locks creatures down inside 30' of you.

There are probably more abilities; but these are the ones off the top of my head. But that covers Fighters, Barbarians, a Rogue subclass and Paladins, plus 2 abilities are gained by Feats (sentinel and martial adept).

In addition the above, there are 'soft' methods to draw attacks. A Barbarian recklessly attacking makes for an attractive target for example. Wolf Barbarians grant allies advantage (making them priority targets). That sort of thing.

Its not like 5E lacks 'draw agro' abilities. There are subclasses and feats and options to gain that ability if you want, and indeed (in the case of the Cavalier and Ancestor Barbarian) specialize at it.

Yes it certain seems to have some how many of what you mention above are in the Players Handbook vs Xanathars (which I had not investigated)

I think ones that require a reaction are pretty darn limited though.

And goading attack seems to have no impact on casters.

TwoSix · Jul 21, 2019

Garthanos said:
I think well done homebrew is on the table

Mage Hand Press has a really nice Warden class that's probably the closest I've seen to fitting the 4e defender paradigm; unfortunately it's still limited to Patreon subscribers.

Garthanos · Jul 21, 2019

Blue said:
I'm fond of the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian from XGtE. You need to be raging and it's only the first hit per turn, but there's no limitations that he marked must stay close to you like the Cavalier - no matter where they move they have disadvantage against everyone else, and the target has resistance against their attacks if it does hit.

I kind of like that too it rather has the intimidation angle going on... You are distracting them because they think you might be coming back for more.