D&D 5E Counterspell what do people think?

CleverNickName · Jul 22, 2019

I don't have a problem with Counterspell, except that it should probably be on every spellcaster's list (going back to what the OP had written about it being something that all casters had.) But even that isn't a deal-breaker for me. I mean, it uses both a valuable 3rd level spell slot and your Reaction, and requires you to see the spell being cast...fairly balanced IMO. If your foe is frustrating you with counterspells, use the Hide action first. (shrug)

We've been playing regularly for years and haven't seen any problems with it yet.

Garthanos · Jul 22, 2019

Oofta said:
guess it feels like it would almost require a whole new subsystem to do it justice. I like the concept of a spell battle, the implementation is what leaves something to be desired.

I wouldnt go that far myself

Yes to opposed rolls yes to aid other and a bonus to spell levels added. Presumably the best casting ability my Int is 18 and the Bards Charisma is 17 the Priests wizdom is 16 ... My casting ability controlls there spell slots contribute... enemy side does something similar. Compare total and apply special effects ;P I am sure they could be devils in the details but you are trying to avoid that

Garthanos · Jul 22, 2019

CleverNickName said:
I don't have a problem with Counterspell, except that it should probably be on every spellcaster's list (going back to what the OP had written about it being something that all casters had.)

Always givem more when it fixes a problem not bad to address the "must have" nature of things.

Stalker0 · Jul 22, 2019

I had a long talk with my group about the concerns I had with counterspell, even noting to my players that “I will knock out your spells with this if we Lee it in”.

They have decided to keep it. I will say the range does factor in if you are smart about it, and I’ve had bad guys pull back out of counterspell range to use effects.

So far it’s working, there are times when I still wonder if I should change it, but my group seems happy. I can always make more spellcasters, so as long as they don’t mind being shutdown than we carry on!

WaterRabbit · Jul 22, 2019

Counterspell is much more useful in this edition than in 3.x/Pathfinder in which nobody bothered as the requirements were usually too high to meet. That said, what you could do is just increase the DC required to counter for each counter after the first.

So in the example:

BG1 cast 4th level spell. It gets countered with a DC 14. BG1 cast counter on the counter, so they need a DC 15. The counter to the counter now needs a DC 16 to succeed, etc. This makes each use a diminishing return as each caster ups the ante.

WaterRabbit · Jul 22, 2019

WaterRabbit said:
Counterspell is much more useful in this edition than in 3.x/Pathfinder in which nobody bothered as the requirements were usually too high to meet. That said, what you could do is just increase the DC required to counter for each counter after the first.

So in the example:

BG1 cast 4th level spell. It gets countered with a DC 14. BG1 cast counter on the counter, so they need a DC 15. The counter to the counter now needs a DC 16 to succeed, etc. This makes each use a diminishing return as each caster ups the ante.

[Or just give your villain casters Spell Sniper]

Lanefan · Jul 23, 2019

Oofta said:
what would happen in our games was that:
BG1 casts a spell
Bard counters BG1's spell
BG1 counters Bard's counter
Wiz counters BG1's counter of Bard's counter
BG2 counters Wiz's counter of BG1's counter of Bard's counter of BG1's counter
Cleric counters BG2's counter of Wiz's counter of BG1's counter of Bard's counter of BG1's counter

... and it just kind of circle's down the drain in chain counters of counters of counters.

I guess an easier answer would have been that you can't counter a counter

This is the answer, right here. Use actual casting times instead of action-reaction, and rule that any spell of equal or lower casting time to the counterspell cannot be countered (because you don't have time to get the counterspell away before the original spell resolves); and this very neatly means a counterspell cannot itself be countered...and nor can some other very fast spells e.g. Featherfall.

Oh, and even though counter is classed as a reaction, make it that if you are planning to counter a spell doing so ties you up for the round as you're spending that time waitign for the opposing caster to start.

but then the enemy casters would never get a spell off.

Well, that would depend on two things: one, that the enemy caster loses initiative; and two, that the PC caster is willing to do pretty much nothing else except counter the foe's caster instead of doing things more offensive/flashy/useful/fun.

In a way I like the idea of a contest limited to two spellcasters, but it becomes crazy at higher levels with half the party or more having counterspell.

I've had counterspell in my game for ages and I see it used maybe once every few months. (and the one time I'd set up an encounter such that the enemy's main tactic would be a counterspelling defense, some fighter got in the enemy caster's face before he could do anything: so much for that idea)

There were times when we (my wife was DM most of the time) were tempted to just house rule that so many counters caused a magical vortex that caused a singularity and sucked all the casters into the void.

Heh - counters or no counters, there's times I've been tempted to do this just on principle!

Fenris-77 · Jul 23, 2019

The whole counter-counter-counter things is only an issue when you have a ton of arcane casters, and even then, there are only so many reactions a party will have in a given turn. I am not suggesting that it isn't a problem in some campaigns as it obviously is, but I feel like this is more of a niche problem with multiple arcane casters than it is a problem with the spell itself. Generally you are burning a spell slot to cancel a lesser or equal slot, which from a balance standpoint seems fine, and you are rolling a base ability check to counter higher level spells (so no prof or skill mods) so with an 18 INT its a 50-50 scaling down, or you can upcast and take the guarantee. None of that makes it seem unbalanced and it's inherently reigned in by the action economy. It's also limited by the need for sight to the caster while casting (in addition to the short range), which is something a clever party could use tactically. Further limiting is the pace of resource use - a caster who is both casting and countering each round is burning through resources at twice the normal rate (other than cantrips of course).

I think the counter-counter-counter feel to encounters is also at least partially a matter of choices and narrative. Are you going to unlimber the big guns early, or see if you can slide some smaller damage through and maybe draw out a counter? Any time a caster uses counter on a 1st or 2nd level they are losing. This kind of probing is common in a lot of games with dispel mechanics, and mostly I find it adds to the tension and tactics rather that taking something away.

IDK, it feels like there are a lot of naturally limiting factors at work.

Bacon Bits · Jul 23, 2019

I think Counterspell would be a better spell for the game overall if it didn't have the "At higher levels" clause.

I do remember the Bee cantrip from the original Unearthed Arcana that would deal 1 damage. It's only purpose was spoiling spellcasting.

Shiroiken · Jul 23, 2019

Counterspell is useful, but it really depends on the level of the character and the type of campaign. I seldom see anyone pick it up at 5th level, since there are other more commonly useful 3rd level spells to choose from, but it's a common pick for wizards at level 6. I've not seen a warlock take it, probably because the slots are so valuable. Sorcerers I've usually seen swap out a 1st level spell for it at about 7th-10th level, since they get so few spells and want to replace useless 1st level spells for something useful. I don't think anyone has considered it a "must have," but I think that most wizards and sorcerers will end up with it by 11th level (which is when spellcasting monsters become more frequent IME).