D&D 5E Counterspell what do people think?

CleverNickName · Jul 23, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
IDK, it feels like there are a lot of naturally limiting factors at work.

Indeed.

I mean, there's always cantrips. A firebolt or eldritch blast never runs out, but those 3rd level spell slots burn up pretty quickly if you keep using them for counterspell every single round. Each counterspell that a foe casts is a lightning bolt that won't happen.

It's also a Reaction that won't happen, and that can be a big deal. A caster who uses counterspell can't make opportunity attacks, can't hellish rebuke you, they can't cast feather fall, they can't use Uncanny Dodge or Cutting Words, etc. In the right situation, "I cast counterspell!" is just another way of saying "throw me off that cliff now" or "my hands are tied until my next turn."

Maxperson · Jul 23, 2019

Garthanos said:
How about my idea... make it a bit more iffy against lower level spells and give whiplash effects even a small amount of damage d4+spell level? of a type related to the spell countered. (if any) or a type opposite.

And conversely when I fail to counter it i might take a small amount of damage of the opposite type maybe?

I brought up the original Chainmail to show both heritage and that the flavor of caster vs caster is ummm solid in foundation.

I was thinking that it should become a 1st level spell. If it's used to attempt to stop a spell of the same level, then you roll an opposed check 1d20+int bonus+proficiency and the higher wins. If you use a higher spell slot, you get +5 to your roll per spell level higher, so using a 5th level slot to stop a 3rd level spell would be 1d20+int bonus+proficiency+10 vs. the defender's 1d20+int bonus+proficiency. If you use a lower level slot, you get -5 per spell level lower, so attempting to use a first level spell to stop a fireball would be 1d20+int bonus+proficiency-10 vs. the defender's 1d20+int bonus+proficiency. It's desperate, but you have a shot.

TallIan · Jul 23, 2019

I think something that gets overlooked with CS is that it is extremely resource intensive - from a PC point of view at least.

Consider a short fight of 2 rounds. A party of 5th level is going to burn through both their 3rd level slots just countering 1 single enemy spellcaster. Even at 9th level that is still a substantial portion of your hitting power from one med/hard encounter.

As you level up and have enough spells to fling about as you like, Counterspell means that you’re doubling the rate you are using spells.

CS is undoubtedly a great spell and looking at in a vacuum seems OP, but considered over an adventuring day really needs to be weighed against just taking the damage not counterspelling will lead to.

Tactically CS is always good, strategically much less so.

Warmaster Horus · Jul 23, 2019

There needs to be more input beyond simply opposing spell level when rolling. The Arcana skill differential between the caster vs the counterspeller would be a start. Then add in another input if the target has magic resistance.

Maxperson · Jul 23, 2019

Warmaster Horus said:
There needs to be more input beyond simply opposing spell level when rolling. The Arcana skill differential between the caster vs the counterspeller would be a start. Then add in another input if the target has magic resistance.

In my idea I used other bonuses to differentiate things. However, I don't think magic resistance should play any role at all. The target is the spell, not the creature casting the spell.

Garthanos · Jul 23, 2019

TallIan said:
I think something that gets overlooked with CS is that it is extremely resource intensive - from a PC point of view at least.

Consider a short fight of 2 rounds. A party of 5th level is going to burn through both their 3rd level slots just countering 1 single enemy spellcaster. Even at 9th level that is still a substantial portion of your hitting power from one med/hard encounter.

As you level up and have enough spells to fling about as you like, Counterspell means that you’re doubling the rate you are using spells.

CS is undoubtedly a great spell and looking at in a vacuum seems OP, but considered over an adventuring day really needs to be weighed against just taking the damage not counterspelling will lead to.

Tactically CS is always good, strategically much less so.

I agree it intuits as being slot cost heavy and I am wanting it to feel fun instead of poof, technically if you are fairly certain the counter spell will work with my suggestions it is slightly more powerful doing low but potentially flavorful whiplash damage on the controller of the countered spell.

Even changes some are suggesting like making it opposed checks I think is flavorful mechanics not really attempts to weaken it.

Maxperson · Jul 23, 2019

Garthanos said:
I agree it intuits as being slot cost heavy and I am wanting it to feel fun instead of poof, technically if you are fairly certain the counter spell will work with my suggestions it is slightly more powerful doing low but potentially flavorful whiplash damage on the controller of the countered spell.

Even changes some are suggesting like making it opposed checks I think is flavorful mechanics not really attempts to weaken it.

The method I'm suggesting is weaker, though. It can be tweaked if you think it's too weak. Perhaps double proficiency for the caster of the counterspell.

Garthanos · Jul 23, 2019

Maxperson said:
The method I'm suggesting is weaker, though. It can be tweaked if you think it's too weak. Perhaps double proficiency for the caster of the counterspell.

Yes I think the original potency as Talian is suggesting does feel appropriate at least for slot equal cost when you go over It needs to make up for possible fails where it used to be automatic before.

Garthanos · Jul 23, 2019

Oh and I do kind of like your idea of allowing it as level 1 ... basically in homage to Chainmail

DND_Reborn · Jul 23, 2019

This is our Counterspell and Dispel Magic rule: casting either of these spells always requires a spellcasting check with a DC equal to 10 plus the twice the spell level you are countering. You gain a +1 bonus to your check for each level of the spell slot above 3rd that you use for the Counterspell or Dispel Magic. Spells of 3rd level and below are not automatically countered or dispelled.

It works for us. The multiple counter-counter scenario has only happened once at our table since we started 5E.

D&D 5E Counterspell what do people think?

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

TallIan

Explorer

Warmaster Horus

Explorer

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Garthanos

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

DND_Reborn

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