Book of Exalted Deeds: A fundamental design philosophy shift at WotC?

While thumbing through the Book O' Exalted Deeds today, I noted how utterly-freekin' powerful it was. The possible abuses of Vow of Poverty have been talked about at length, but there are plenty of other feats that are over-the-top better than standard D&D feats. These include:

Nymph's Kiss, which gives you a +2 to all cha-related checks. This encompases all cha-based skills, of course, but turn attempts are affected as well, and arguably Telepathy psionic powers. This is obviously way better than a +2 to two skills feat. But wait! There's more! It also gives a +1 bonus to saves vs spells and spell-like abilities. Okaaaaay.

[EDIT]: But wait! There's even MORE! You also gain an extra skill point per level after you take this feat! Whooo!

Next item:

Sacred Strike: When you get a sneak attack against an evil creature (not an evil outsider, just anyone evil), you roll d8s instead of d6s. Boy-howdy! As if sneak-attacking wasn't already powerful enough.

And oh yeah, your sneak attacks are considered "Good" for the purposes of overcoming damage redcution.


OK, I don't think anyone can argue that these feats are just plain better than any standard feat. And the balance? You have to be a *really* stand-up good person (and in the case of Nymph's Kiss, have a nymph girlfriend, but that's more of a D&D player's wet dream than a prereq ). Anyway, my point is that WotC seems to now believe that you can give mechanics power - in some cases a lot of power, for RP restrictions. What's everyone's thoughts on this?

You should take a look at that Celestian mage prestige class, it seems too good to be true as well.

I sort of reminds me of the kits from 2E that gave you great abilities and as a drawback had roleplaying penalties. But the thing about both those kits and the stuff from the Book of Exalted Deeds, is it all depends on the player and DM to work out an equitable balance on how things work.

Hardhead said:

Sacred Strike: When you get a sneak attack against an evil creature (not an evil outsider, just anyone evil), you roll d8s instead of d6s. Boy-howdy! As if sneak-attacking wasn't already powerful enough.

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There have been many, many feats in various d20 products that give you d8's for sneak attack damage. At least this one is balanced by the fact that exalted feats can only be gained as a boon from deities or celestials or the like.

MeepoTheMighty said:

There have been many, many feats in various d20 products that give you d8's for sneak attack damage. At least this one is balanced by the fact that exalted feats can only be gained as a boon from deities or celestials or the like.

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That's not how I understand it. Page reference please? Because I was under the impression you just had to be really squeaky clean.

Hardhead said:

Sacred Strike: When you get a sneak attack against an evil creature (not an evil outsider, just anyone evil), you roll d8s instead of d6s. Boy-howdy! As if sneak-attacking wasn't already powerful enough.

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IF you're 10th level, that means an extra... 5 points damage on a sneak attack on average. Which still doesn't work on evil undead and such. Don't worry too much about that.

Hardhead said:

And the balance? You have to be a *really* stand-up good person (and in the case of Nymph's Kiss, have a nymph girlfriend, but that's more of a D&D players wet dream than a prereq ).

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Well, if your DM doesn't make a Nymph fall in love with you (which is an ultimately absolutely rare event), you don't have access to that feat now, do you ?

What I'm trying to say is, yeah, some stuff from BoED is really good. Outright game-disrupting ? I don't think so. About time they publish such stuff too. If I see another +2/+2 feat, I'm gonna puke.

What's the use of publishing a product that players wouldn't want to use ? If your players want to get some stuff from BoED, I just think that means one thing: success.

And if you're worried about balance: it always was the province of the DM to make sure that balance is observed in his campaign. Since all gaming group's campaigns are different, there cannot be a single set of rules that would guarantee it. If there's a balance problem in your group, that's because you let something go in THAT WASN'T SUITABLE FOR YOUR PARTICULAR GROUP.

I have allowed BoED IMC, and so far, we only get great gaming from it, with absolutely no balance issues. Also note that I'm not about to give Nymph's Kiss to anybody yet, because there just isn't a Nymph that fell in love with one of the PC's.

I can only hope that the Complete Warrior will be as good...

Tarrasque Wrangler said:

That's not how I understand it. Page reference please? Because I was under the impression you just had to be really squeaky clean.

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Page 39.
Exalted Feats, 1st paragraph

Book of Exalted Deeds said:

Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good -- deities, celestials, or similar creatures. These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are).

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Note that last part, too. It means that anything that suppresses supernatural abilities (like antimagic fields) also suppresses Exalted Feats.

Book of Exalted Deeds said:

A character must have the DM's permission to take an exalted feat.

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As I mentioned in another thread on this topic, you can never just *choose* to take an exalted feat. Someone powerful in the Upper Planes has to HELP you get it.

For those reasons, yes, they are "better" than standard feats, but still balanced.

Hardhead said:

Anyway, my point is that WotC seems to now believe that you can give mechanics power - in some cases a lot of power, for RP restrictions. What's everyone's thoughts on this?

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Not other than "I agree."

There are interesting things in there I will use, but this book definately needs some filtering.

MeepoTheMighty said:

There have been many, many feats in various d20 products that give you d8's for sneak attack damage.

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Many, many is an exagaration, but of those that do exist, they have been regarded dubiously by some as well

At least this one is balanced by the fact that exalted feats can only be gained as a boon from deities or celestials or the like.

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That's not balancing any more that only letting characters with great stats play super-fighters in 1e was balancing. It does give the GM control, but once granted, it doesn't make the feats balanced.

Silveras said:

Note that last part, too. It means that anything that suppresses supernatural abilities (like antimagic fields) also suppresses Exalted Feats.

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That's one thing that supresses supernatural abilities. Name me another.

And antimagic shells & fields inhibits the casters in the party as well. This is not a significant balancing point.

I remain as unimpressed by the BoED as I was the BoVD.