What the heck is going on with the professional RPG industry in regards to Zak S?

Edit: This post was inappropriate, so I have deleted it.

Vexorg said:

Even if Zak is brought into court and found guilty of abuse or harassment, why can't wizards simply say "yes we worked with him, but that was before we knew what was going on." Why does stripping him of credit for his contributions need to be part of his social punishment?

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Because then they would be lying. Wizards may not have known about the rape, sexual assault, or "in meat life" abuse, but they knew about a good chunk of the rest (up to 2014). Again, this is part of why people are still upset with Round 2 of tepid responses from Wizards of the Coast. During the development of D&D Next, Mike Mearls knew people found his inclusion upsetting. Victims voiced their concerns, stories, and problems with Zak S. Mike Mearls then gave Zak S a list of his accusers, which he used as a blacklist for future harassment campaigns. Mike Mearls defended him. Mike Mearls dismissed the victims of his harassment. Mike Mearls gaslighted these victims. And nowhere in Wizards of the Coast's statements do they actually acknowledge or apologize for this level of active involvement in facilitating and enabling that harassment.

As to why his credit is being stripped, a big part of that has to do with being able to bank on your place in the credits to bolster your position in a community, writing, or making money. RPG Pundit, for example, does point to his credits in the PHB to bolster his brand.

Sadras said:

People are becoming less tolerant of disagreement which, for me, is a bad thing.

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I'd like to respond to this a bit: There is tolerance of disagreement, and then there's tolerance of bad behavior. These are not the same.

If you are a troll, or otherwise not in the dialogue in good faith, we don't need to tolerate your position. If you are in denial of facts for your own benefit, we don't need to tolerate your disagreement.

Aldarc said:

As to why his credit is being stripped, a big part of that has to do with being able to bank on your place in the credits to bolster your position in a community, writing, or making money. RPG Pundit, for example, does point to his credits in the PHB to bolster his brand.

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And, for better or worse, still can if they want to. All they need is a photo of the credits page from one of the many 5e books already out there with his name in it.

Removing those credits won't have much if any impact right now other than symbolic. Even the unsold books on the shelf or in the distribution pipeline still have those names in - unless WotC decides to recall and destroy them all; *that* would be an action that would make a statement.

I'm not holding my breath.

Shasarak said:

There was a period of time where you only needed one accusation to get a Mob riled up enough to go out and Lynch some poor fool.

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Shasarak will no longer be a part of this conversation, or any other on EN World. Ever.

Please consider this as you post. As has already been noted - bad behavior does not have to be tolerated.

Gradine said:

I really... really try not to block people, but sometimes people go so far beyond the pale to prove they're not worth the time of day. I think comparing women disclosing the years of abuse and suffering they've been put through to the ing KKK certainly qualifies.

Reported. Blocked.

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I've largely just let this thread run it's own course without comment, but since you're making a big show of how you are reporting and blocking people...

I don't think that comparison was remotely fair. While his comparison may have been an exaggeration, it certainly wasn't comparing those two things you've claimed at all. He wasn't comparing the actions of women reporting accusations, but the actions of the mob responding to them and I think the justifications provided for calling upon mob action. I'm not a big fan of analogies, because I find that they obfuscate the truth rather than disclose it, but his point - however tastelessly made - is not one whose merit is automatically dismissible. Heck, it's not even one that is automatically dismissible as a matter of social justice, as the number of court cases in recent years by black males who've one law suits against colleges because colleges were willing to "believe all women" and #metoo as long as the alleged perp was a black male provides an example for.

Anyway, as for the thread itself, it's the usual. I happen to believe the accusation, but I don't think believing the accusation makes me virtuous or is in any fashion helpful or a better person. I don't actually know these people, despite occasional interaction with Zak (some positive, some negative). Their private lives grieve me, and the pain that these women have suffered pains me (which it did when I only knew they were porn stars, but the more so as the veil of fantasy is torn off the concept and the persona of Zak or the falsehood of Zak+Mandy in particular), but I don't expect that my pity or my compassion - much less my outrage - does anyone any good. I don't plan to buy anything from Zak S, but then I never planned to do so anyway, so this is no threat. To say that I wasn't his target audience in the first place is an understatement. I didn't approve of the life of a male porn star even before I knew that his abuse and denigration of women went beyond the normal stereotype for that profession. I didn't approve of how his morality colored the products and art he produced. I don't disapprove of a decision to not patronize his works because you don't want to financially support someone whose behavior is like Zak S, but I also am very uncomfortable with the idea of 'social punishment' and collective action against persons that fall outside the criminal justice system. That is a slippery slope I don't want to go down, and I'm old enough to remember when the left spoke glowingly of artistic works that discussed the risks of black lists, shunning, and collective social punishment and demonized those that engaged in that behavior. Not surprisingly, it appears that the objection was only being targeted by the majority opinion, and that now that the left has power it's feeling like those things it formerly despised seem like reasonable tools of social control all of the sudden. I can very much understand not wanting to bestow honors on Zak now that his character is publically disclosed, but I never bestowed honors on him in the first place so its not my problem. Now that those honors are bestowed, since they weren't bestowed with any obvious comment on his personal character, but only on the perceived artistic merit of his works, I'm uncomfortable with acts of publically rescinding those honors, because I don't think you can unwrite history (or the economic benefit and social standing he's hitherto received from the honors), but even more so because my suspicion is that people rescind honors more for their own sake than out of any real desire for things to be better. I don't think anyone would ever mistake winning an Ennie for a humanitarian award. I don't see how it actually heals anything to take them away but maybe your own self-respect. (If your self-respect worries you, consider you will never ever have done anything as embarrassing as a standing ovation for Roman Polanski at the Oscars after his history as a child rapist was known, and during which the audience was congratulating itself on its courage for standing up on his behalf.) I don't know either his victims or Zak well enough to actually help or heal in this situation. I am actually a small person, not important to this affair at all. There is absolutely nothing I can do to applaud myself for even if I wanted to.

In short, I don't agree with any of you and I find pretty much all this talk from just about everyone embarrassing, dangerous, and decidedly anti-social. If this conversation was occurring in a physical space, I wouldn't want to be in the room with you. I don't agree. I don't 'believe all women' because I don't consider women more a collective than individuals. I believe these women. I don't think we are actually turning some social corner. I think mostly #metoo is advanced for self-centered reasons and I see no sign things are going to get better. I don't think taking a stand is going to make abusers less likely to be abusive. I think real progress and change is made one person at a time, through personal and meaningful relationships.

I am scared, deeply and actually scared, by how much we seem to be trying to reinvent the struggle session and a bunch of other ugly things. I am deeply disturbed by the complete collapse of morality I see in all corners. I don't see white hats and black hats. I see two groups with the same morality and the same convictions, fighting only that their tribe has the power to put the boot on the other one. I am not scared for myself. I am scared for the world my children will inherit.

Could we please just go back to talking about game mechanics and the art and science of RPGs? Because none of these political threads as it applies to RPGs is nearly as becoming or important as it's lately been considered to be. People just work themselves up into a tower of rage.

I'm still sad.

Gradine said:

Reported. Blocked.

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In the future, if you are going to use the ignore list, please don't announce it in public. It is there to help you enforce self-discipline in avoiding posters who rub you the wrong way, not for inclusion in public dramas.

okay really don't want to get into this miserable quagmire of a topic (not in the sense of "forum topic", in the sense of "topic of discussion") but here goes:

* Zak S was a hero of mine. Now I'd be pleased if he accidentally tripped and fell into an industrial blender. I was one of Zak's fans. He hated the same people I hated. That was hugely important to me from 2014-2016. But I believe Mandy and the others. And I think that the idea that they, for any reason, made up their allegations is ludicrous as well as offensive.

* It is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG for WotC to remove Zak's credits from the products he consulted on, and I've told them so directly, not that they listen to a nobody like me. No matter how repugnant a person is or how badly you want to distance yourself from them for PR reasons, retroactively un-crediting a contributor is the same thing as stealing their work and claiming it for your own. It is NOT OKAY and as a professional maker-upper-of-stuff I strongly feel Wizards should NOT do it. Also and I hope by typing this sentence I won't be torpedoing my chance for working for WotC in the future, but I really don't see how removing Zak's name from the products he worked on helps the victims in any way, while it's very clear how it helps WotC, by disassociating themselves from a sexual predator and revising history to pretend they never hired him.

*

If Ed Greenwood or Mike Mearls get similar allegations made against them, will they be treated the same as Zak S? And if not, then why not?

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Clearly the answer is YES. Have you been following the tragic flaming end of D&D legend Frank Mentzer's career? He was also a rapey and is paying the price.

* Finally, remember that mention I made about Zak of Zak hating the same people that I did from '14-'16? Well it turns out, those people are also harboring ing child rapists, and the story is getting completely lost in the face of Sabbathgate and Mentzergate. Insufferable jerkass Matt McFarland (formerly BlackHat_Matt on RPG.net) is also literally a CHILD RAPIST, and the list of allegations against him is still growing but is already a disgusting litany of creepery. His wife, Michelle Lyons-McFarland, received reports of her husband's inappropriate behavior in her official capacity and proceeded to cover for him. Matt has not denied the allegations, has made a public statement effectively admitting them, and has stepped down from RPG.net, the IGDN, and closed his company, all things you don't do if you're not very, very, (probably) guilty. I've been talking to people on Twitter who have witnessed this kind of predatory behavior from Matt since 2003!! What's particularly galling is that Matt McFarland has been one of those shrieking SJW male feminist allies, smugly holier than thou about how progressive he is and how much he wants to help marginalized groups. All while he has been getting away with nearly two decades of predating upon underaged or very young girls. Sickening.

At the time this broke, Matt McFarland (who has, with some truly sickening irony, written for "The Good Men Project") was the IGDN's CONVENTION COORDINATOR (his duties included making sure conventions were safe spaces for people) and Michelle was the organization's PRESIDENT. With sexual predators holding such crucial positions in the IGDN, I strongly suspect that the other management were also complicit, enablers, or at the least turning a blind eye, including long time close friend of Matt and Michelle, Mark Diaz Truman of Magpie Games, who held the position of President before Michelle. The IGDN as an organization should be dissolved outright. Considering that the IGDN leadership and the RPG.net moderation team are about 70% the same people, I am very suspicious that higher-ups at the Big Purple might have covered for Matt as well.

tl;dr Zak S he's a monster, it's still wrong for WotC to remove his credits, Frank Mentzer is also in a lot of trouble for bad behavior, against women at Paizo and in general, and appears to be going out in flames, and in the midst of this, please don't forget that Matt McFarland and Michelle Lyons-McFarland of Growling Door games are alleged by at least half a dozen victims, maybe more, to be a serial child rapist and an enabler of serial child abuse respectively. They will never be as important or as famous as Frank Mentzer or even Zak Sabbath, but they are the kind of rats I can see trying to just hide until this #MeToo moment in the industry passes, hoping that everyone will forget that they were perhaps the worst offenders.

Frank Mentzer raped someone?

ParanoydStyle said:

Clearly the answer is YES. Have you been following the tragic flaming end of D&D legend Frank Mentzer's career? He was also a rapey and is paying the price.

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I understand the emotional content here, but I am forced to ask you to please watch your language. I know that may seem silly, in this context, but those are the rules we ask everyone to work with.