D&D 5E Missile weapons atk and dmg.

ExploderWizard · Aug 26, 2014

Derren said:
In my opinion a deviation from reality should only be done with a good reason. What reason was it to make ranged fighters Dex only?

I am getting a bit confused. That hasn't been done.

A 5E fighter throwing an axe can use STR. That is not DEX only.

A 5E fighter shooting a bow uses DEX as it has always been.

A 5E fighter throwing a dagger can use STR OR DEX

So you can still have a ranged weapon fighter that uses STR.

Derren · Aug 26, 2014

ExploderWizard said:
I am getting a bit confused. That hasn't been done.

A 5E fighter throwing an axe can use STR. That is not DEX only.

A 5E fighter shooting a bow uses DEX as it has always been.

A 5E fighter throwing a dagger can use STR OR DEX

So you can still have a ranged weapon fighter that uses STR.

I am mostly speaking about archers as they tended to be rather strong and one major obstacle in recruiting good archers was to train conscripts long enough for them to be able to use strong bows (hence the common use of crossbows).
In the end, a bow is not all that different from a thrown weapon as far as the source of the power is concerned. The only weapon which would need an exception to the Dex to hit, Strength to damage rule would be crossbows.

ExploderWizard · Aug 26, 2014

Derren said:
I am mostly speaking about archers as they tended to be rather strong and one major obstacle in recruiting good archers was to train conscripts long enough for them to be able to use strong bows (hence the common use of crossbows).
In the end, a bow is not all that different from a thrown weapon as far as the source of the power is concerned. The only weapon which would need an exception to the Dex to hit, Strength to damage rule would be crossbows.

In a system as abstract as D&D where an "attack" is NOT a single thrust or swing of a weapon (or AD&D 1 minute rounds would be even more funny!) there doesn't need to be so direct a link between STR and damage caused in all cases. A DEX archer hits chinks & spots that hurt more. There isn't really a rule for hit location because.....you guessed it ABSTRACTION!.

TDarien · Aug 26, 2014

Thaumaturge said:
You might want to read the last bit of the rules text you quoted again.

Thaumaturge.

Ah, you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that you couldn't use STR with thrown finesse weapons. Rather, I meant that thrown finesse weapons are the only thrown weapons that you can use DEX with. I should have been more clear.

You can use Strength or Dex when throwing a dagger because it's a finesse weapon, not because it's a thrown weapon.

Thrown weapons use the same attribute for melee and ranged. With finesse weapons you can use STR or DEX in melee, so you can use STR or DEX with a thrown finesse weapon.

Non-finesse melee weapons use STR, so with a non-finesse thrown weapon, you use STR.

Thaumaturge · Aug 26, 2014

TDarien said:
You can use Strength or Dex when throwing a dagger because it's a finesse weapon, not because it's a thrown weapon.

Thrown weapons use the same attribute for melee and ranged. With finesse weapons you can use STR or DEX in melee, so you can use STR or DEX with a thrown finesse weapon.

Non-finesse melee weapons use STR, so with a non-finesse thrown weapon, you use STR.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I read "only use Dex with daggers" as if the "only" modified "Dex" instead of "daggers".

Got it.

Carry on.

Thaumaturge.

BrokenEggGames · Aug 26, 2014

Mage of Spellford said:
Been busy but I finally had a chance to peruse the rules for 5e. One thing that jumped out at me was that melee weapons use the str or dex bonus for atk and damage and missile weapons now use the dex bonus for BOTH atk and damage.

I like this although I can definitely see that it boosts the rogue's/elf damage potential.

MK

Is it boosting it to a level you feel is too high? Is it exploitative? Or are you just pointing out something that caught your eye?

The Crimson Binome · Aug 26, 2014

ExploderWizard said:
In a system as abstract as D&D where an "attack" is NOT a single thrust or swing of a weapon (or AD&D 1 minute rounds would be even more funny!) there doesn't need to be so direct a link between STR and damage caused in all cases.

Although, for contrast, a single attack is explicitly a single arrow fired.

I don't think that anyone is arguing for archers using Strength to hit with their bow attacks. I think they just want some sort of reason for an archer to even want Strength, instead of dumping it as low as you possibly can since it does nothing for you. If a country is known for the strength of their archers, then they should be feared as a military power on that grounds, rather than being a complete joke.

ExploderWizard · Aug 26, 2014

Saelorn said:
I don't think that anyone is arguing for archers using Strength to hit with their bow attacks. I think they just want some sort of reason for an archer to even want Strength, instead of dumping it as low as you possibly can since it does nothing for you. If a country is known for the strength of their archers, then they should be feared as a military power on that grounds, rather than being a complete joke.

Perhaps specialized equipment such as the old bows built for STR in 1E. With these special mighty bows, strong archers use their STR modifier for attacks & damage. An entire nation of Ahnold archers would be quite frightening, especially when you engaged them in melee.

Andor · Aug 26, 2014

ExploderWizard said:
Perhaps specialized equipment such as the old bows built for STR in 1E. With these special mighty bows, strong archers use their STR modifier for attacks & damage. An entire nation of Ahnold archers would be quite frightening, especially when you engaged them in melee.

Str bows were also there in 2e and 3e. It wasn't until 4e with it's 'single stat per character' philosophy that it went away.

And if you go back to history and myth strength is important for archers. Hercules was a famed archer. Odysseus had a bow only he was stong enough to string. The french commented that the english archers looked like hunchbacks from their mighty back muscles.

Now all that having been said, we also have the modern fantasy tradition where in Tolkein we find that the elves were the most feared archers even though men were generally reckoned to be stronger. (Although you may note it was a man who brought down Smaug. Using an elvish arrow....) Likewise Halflings were feared wielders of bows and slings which was certainly not due to their mighty thews. In most modern fantasy books I generally recall archers being noted for nimbleness and dexterity and eyesight, rather than herculean muscles or Quasimodoesque physiology.

So I don't really have a problem with it. Yes historical war bows required tremendous strength to use, on the other hand Fred Bear brought down an african bull elephant with a single arrow shot from a 75 pound longbow. If Mr Bear can drop an elephant I'll allow it may have been Dex and not Strength that allowed Bard to drop a dragon.

The Crimson Binome · Aug 26, 2014

ExploderWizard said:
Perhaps specialized equipment such as the old bows built for STR in 1E. With these special mighty bows, strong archers use their STR modifier for attacks & damage.

I really, really don't know about that. Melee combat is hectic enough that you could make arguments either way for Strength or Dex, particularly regarding precision, but I suspect there would be sufficient resistance to the idea that huge muscles will allow you to better hit a small target at 100 yards.

D&D 5E Missile weapons atk and dmg.

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