D&D 5E [Homebrew] − Rethinking the Ability Scores

Horwath · Oct 4, 2017

I'm going with 4 ability solution myself:

Strength; melee and thrown attack and damage, bonus HPs(old con mechanics), carring capacity,
skills: athletics,
saves: fort saves(current str and con saves),

dexterity; ranged and finesse attack and damage, AC bonus, initiative bonus,
skills: acrobatics, stealth, thievery(sleight of hands, open lock, disable device).
saves: reflex saves(dex saves),

Cunning; finesse part of the mind. Merged some functions of inteligence, wisdom and charisma; extra skill proficiency per bonus, extra language per bonus, initiative bonus,
Skills: all current int,wis and cha based skills.
saves: none

Willpower; power and presence part of the mind. Spellcasting stat for all classes, calculated in "presence" part of charisma(inspire courage, paladins auras, frightfull presence etc...),
skills: none.
saves: will saves(current int,wis and cha saves).

mellored · Oct 4, 2017

Yaarel said:
Right now classes have score minimums, while races have score improvements.

Class minimums are for multiclassing only. You can make a 8 Str, 8 Con, 8 Dex fighter if you wanted.
Though, you don't, so it's an effective class minimum.

What if races instead have score minimums too, without any score improvements?

That's an improvement.

Hmm... what if racial features were based on a stat?

Half-orc savagery: When you score a critical hit, or your target rolls a 1 on a saving throw from your damaging spell, you can add Str to the damage. Relentless Endurance: When you are reduced to 0, if the excessive damage is less than your Con modifier, you are reduced to 1 instead.
Wood Elf Fleet Footed: Increase your speed by your Dexterity modifier. Keen Eye: Increase the range of attacks and spells by 5' times your Wisdom modifier, up to a maximum of twice it's original distance.
Drow Ambidextrous: When you TWF, you can add your Dexterity modifier to your second attack. In addition, you get 2 item interactions per turn. Poisoner: When you use a poison, you can add your (Wis, Int, Cha ?) modifier to the DC.
Tielfing/High Elf: You gain extra spells that you can cast with Cha/Int.
Human Well Rounded: Increase your lowest 2 ability scores to equal to your third lowest ability score. (8 to 12 on your dump stats).

Doesn't have any hard lock, has interesting abilities that push you towards a culture play style, not a specific class.

Yardiff · Oct 5, 2017

My opinion, if your going to change the stats then you should have str as damage only and dex as to hit only.

Wulffolk · Oct 5, 2017

mellored said:
Hmm... what if racial features were based on a stat?

Half-orc savagery: When you score a critical hit, or your target rolls a 1 on a saving throw from your damaging spell, you can add Str to the damage. Relentless Endurance: When you are reduced to 0, if the excessive damage is less than your Con modifier, you are reduced to 1 instead.
Wood Elf Fleet Footed: Increase your speed by your Dexterity modifier. Keen Eye: Increase the range of attacks and spells by 5' times your Wisdom modifier, up to a maximum of twice it's original distance.
Drow Ambidextrous: When you TWF, you can add your Dexterity modifier to your second attack. In addition, you get 2 item interactions per turn. Poisoner: When you use a poison, you can add your (Wis, Int, Cha ?) modifier to the DC.
Tielfing/High Elf: You gain extra spells that you can cast with Cha/Int.
Human Well Rounded: Increase your lowest 2 ability scores to equal to your third lowest ability score. (8 to 12 on your dump stats).

Doesn't have any hard lock, has interesting abilities that push you towards a culture play style, not a specific class.

I think that is a step in the right direction, for sure. I prefer flavorful racial differences over straight-up stat bonuses.

Yardiff said:
My opinion, if your going to change the stats then you should have str as damage only and dex as to hit only.

This allows for the massive brute that has a hard time hitting, but hits like a truck when he does, and the nimble duellist that can score touches at will, but does little more than flesh wounds. It also works for bows. Stronger character's can use bows with a stronger draw, and weaker characters can't effectively use a stronger bow. Crossbows have the benefit of allowing somebody to use a bow of greater strength than they possess if the use a crank to load it. I have used this as a house rule for a while.

Yaarel · Oct 5, 2017

mellored said:
Hmm... what if racial features were based on a stat?

I could live with that.

Having a race feature depend on an ability seems to me enough to mechanically encourage the frequency of that ability, as a prominent characteristic of that race. The feature would have to be unambiguously good and useful, like fly or teleport or so on. So it is worthwhile to invest in it and synergize around it.

A significant race feature that benefits from the race ability, would make me more relaxed about the size of the minimum.

So, any race that has currently +2, would instead have a 13 minimum, and +1 an 11 minimum. In other words, it cant be dumped, but the player can still ignore it. Meanwhile, to benefit from the feature requires investing in the ability.

Yaarel · Oct 5, 2017

Horwath said:
I'm going with 4 ability solution myself:

Strength; melee and thrown attack and damage, bonus HPs(old con mechanics), carring capacity,
skills: athletics,
saves: fort saves(current str and con saves),

dexterity; ranged and finesse attack and damage, AC bonus, initiative bonus,
skills: acrobatics, stealth, thievery(sleight of hands, open lock, disable device).
saves: reflex saves(dex saves),

Cunning; finesse part of the mind. Merged some functions of inteligence, wisdom and charisma; extra skill proficiency per bonus, extra language per bonus, initiative bonus,
Skills: all current int,wis and cha based skills.
saves: none

Willpower; power and presence part of the mind. Spellcasting stat for all classes, calculated in "presence" part of charisma(inspire courage, paladins auras, frightfull presence etc...),
skills: none.
saves: will saves(current int,wis and cha saves).

Where you merge Strength and Constitution into a single ability called Strength, it does feel a bit more balanced alongside Dexterity, but Dexterity is still too powerful because its redundancy with Strength (finesse, grappling, AC, etcetera) can replace and dump Strength.

Meanwhile, the skill-only Cunning ability seems painfully underpowered compared to those two abilities. And Willpower being nothing except a passive save, little better.

This Willpower is responsible for casting, but this is only relevant to caster classes. Creating a class that benefits from a broken ability doesnt actually fix the brokenness. It is similar to requiring a feat tax to solve a problem. Feats should be nice, not required.

Abilities are so important, the foundation that impacts all other mechanics in the gaming system. It is better to fix the problematic abilities in the first place. Bandaids are less helpful. Full rethinking and redesign is timely.

The main problem is, these four abilities stay too close to the habitual Strength/Dexterity arrangement that fundamentally fails. The habit of Strength/Dexterity is the essence of the problem that needs fixing, if abilities are to work usefully, equally, and smoothly.

Yaarel · Oct 5, 2017

Wulffolk said:
This allows for the massive brute that has a hard time hitting, but hits like a truck when he does, and the nimble duellist that can score touches at will, but does little more than flesh wounds. It also works for bows. Stronger character's can use bows with a stronger draw, and weaker characters can't effectively use a stronger bow. Crossbows have the benefit of allowing somebody to use a bow of greater strength than they possess if the use a crank to load it. I have used this as a house rule for a while.

Dividing abilities by attack and damage is helpful. In my current exploration, Size ≈ Strength damage for brute power. Athletics ≈ Strength attack for agile accuracy.

With regard to bows, I still feel strongly they better belong with Perception. Strength and somersaults are less important for archery, while attention, calculation, and a steady hand are win.

My exploration splits manual dexterity away from athletic agility. Manual dexterity becomes its own ability Precision, which has the cautious sensitive subtle motions and the steady hand.

As such, the intelligent Perception ability is responsible for the archery attack, while the dexterous Precision ability is the archery damage.

Wulffolk · Oct 5, 2017

Yaarel said:
With regard to bows ... Strength ... less important for archery

Actually, strength was incredibly important to the medieval archer. English longbows took a great amount of strength to draw and hold steady once they were drawn. I would agree that perception is more important than manual dexterity when it comes to accuracy in archery.

Yardiff · Oct 5, 2017

Very few weapon are purely dex/agil/precision or whichever name you choose for manual dexterity/hand eye coordination.

Yaarel · Oct 5, 2017

Wulffolk said:
Actually, strength was incredibly important to the medieval archer. English longbows took a great amount of strength to draw and hold steady once they were drawn. I would agree that perception is more important than manual dexterity when it comes to accuracy in archery.

I like the way D&D tradition handles the ‘strength bow’. Perhaps for 5e, it is a special masterwork weapon that allows the archer to use Strength for archery damage instead of Precision.

So, here, the archer uses the Perception ability for the attack bonus, and can use either Precision or Strength for damage. Normally Precision for a precisely steady hand, but Strength can replace it if the bow is designed for strength to hit harder.

[MENTION=6789021]Yardiff[/MENTION]. Yeah, I wish D&D made it possible to use many bonuses at the same time, from whichever abilities seem to be relevant factors. But D&D pressures designers and players to pick the one ability that seems to be the most prominent, despite other factors being present too.

D&D 5E [Homebrew] − Rethinking the Ability Scores

Horwath

Legend

mellored

Legend

Yardiff

Adventurer

Wulffolk

Explorer

Yaarel

He Mage

Yaarel

He Mage

Yaarel

He Mage

Wulffolk

Explorer

Yardiff

Adventurer

Yaarel

He Mage

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