Warlock Maledictions

clearstream said:

At the moment it feels like an invocation tax, but that's partly because of how valuable the beams*modifier damage is.

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Right. Which is why rather than have it be an invocation, it is rather an upgrade that all warlocks will have access to upon reaching a given level. This also ensures that anyone that dips Warlock cannot wait until they can access invocations and grab this. Will help make more investment needed for the Agonizing Blast effect, but without requiring the expenditure of an Invocation.

clearstream said:

Equally unsure. Changing energy type seems good, but if the base is force I can't see that they'd need it. Therefore the base must not be force.

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I see what you are saying, and I don't necessarily disagree. But I think the fact that Eldritch Blast deals force damage is really part of the charm of the ability. At the same time, it is also a blessing an a curse. While nothing is really resistant to force damage, nothing is also vulnerable to it. Logistically and mechanically, force damage is not very different from Bludgeoning / Slashing / Piercing damage made with a magic weapon. 90% of creatures that are resistant to Bludgeoning / Slashing / Piercing have that resistance overcome once that damage comes from a magical source. And many class abilities put that ability to deal magical weapon damage (such as the Monk or Moon Druid) at around level 5. This means having force damage is equivalent to at most a level 5 ability. But once again, it will never benefit from vulnerabilities that a creature might have. Allowing to work in a way for that to happen can be nice. It doesn't even need to be a feature, but rather an opt-in ability through an invocation.

clearstream said:

I don't think there is a great reason for eliminating other cantrips though... I suppose you are saying make Blast more interesting so that variety in play is achieved with it alone. That might be hard... or even unnecessary given the variety in damage-dealing cantrips that already exists.

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I'm not saying eliminating cantrips from the Warlock. Just the offensive ones. Eldritch Blast becomes an offensive Swiss Army Knife of sorts, but still give them access to the defensive or utility cantrips.

clearstream said:

Applying multiple at once is already part of a Warlock, e.g. they can apply Repelling and Lethargy to the same cast of EB. You could be right about the Once per turn on your own turns thing. That could be an unnecessary debuff.

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In case it is helpful, here is the way I rule it. Agonizing Blast applies to every ray from Eldritch Blast. Period. This is no different than someone using a longbow, except they average 1 more point of damage per attack/ray. I see nothing wrong with this.

Other things like Repelling Blast and Lethargy also apply to every ray. However, an enemy can be affected no more than once per turn. So if you have two shots with a Repelling Blast and you use both to hit one guy, he will only get knocked back 10 feet. But if you use those two blasts to hit two different guys, they each get knocked back 10 feet. From my perspective, to allow any more would be a ridiculous amount of battlefield control for one character.

So here is where I am this morning...

Maledictions (this is a new class feature)
At 3rd level, your patron reveals the hidden power of certain cantrips—those for which you make a ranged spell attack or that have a saving throw. These cantrips become “maledictions”, that can be enhanced by the eldritch invocations available to you.

Agonizing Blast (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When you cast a malediction, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit or failed saving throw.

Eldritch Spear (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When you cast a malediction, its range is doubled.

Grasp of Hadar (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When a malediction you cast damages a creature for the first time in a turn, you can move that creature in a straight line 10 feet closer to you.

Lance of Lethargy (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When a malediction you cast damages a creature for the first time in a turn, you can reduce that creature’s speed by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.

Repelling Blast (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When a malediction you cast damages a creature for the first time in a turn, you can push that creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.


Pushed Malediction feature out one level to address dipping concerns. Doing so is a nerf to level one and two Warlocks, which I assume impacts the first two sessions (DMG suggests, and I find in play, one session to level to 2, and one more to level to 3).

Undid nerf to Agonizing Blast, so that it is as stronger than ever! This came out of contemplating cross-class balance, with Ranger archery added to examples to illustrate.

Changed on-application effects to "first time in a turn", in line with @Hawk Diesel comments. I don't like changing RAW for small gains, but here I note two benefits - 1) ease of use (subtle differences in application between similar effects can become confused at the table), and 2) I noticed my Warlocks were all over Repelling, but sniffy about Grasp and Lance, and I think this was because applying two or three 10' pushes a turn on one target was so clearly stronger that it made the others non-viable.

Looking back at my examples (updated on the first page) this change casts a Warlock as a master of fighting with cantrips. I think other cantrips look fairly castable, compared with Blast.

Just a random thought. Warlocks with Maledictions are better at damage dealing cantrips than other classes. Which can lead to wanting more damage dealing cantrips than normal for the flexibility between cantrips.

With the few cantrips known, this leads to less space for non-combat cantrips as an possible unintended consequence. But the warlock's limited spell slots does call on use of invocations and cantrips in other pillars of play.

So, as a thought experiment, what would be additional Maledictions that would help non-combat cantrips? It seems a varied bunch: Friends, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation

Just spitballing here, how about an alternate proposal: Instead of spending Invocations to improve cantrips, you can spend Invocations to get other spells at-will.

Dark Talent
Prerequisite: 5th level
Pick a 1st level spell you know from your Warlock spell list. For you this becomes a cantrip and becomes an extra cantrip known. It is cast using two levels behind your normal Warlock spell slots. (This frees up a spell known.)

Dark Secrets
Prerequisite: 9th level
Pick a 1st or 2nd level spell you know from your Warlock spell list. For you this becomes a cantrip and becomes an extra cantrip known. It is cast using two levels behind your normal Warlock spell slots. (This frees up a spell known.)

This encourages staying in Warlock class because both the prerequisite and the spell slot level are based on it. It scales (like cantrips) but a bit behind so as not to give your actual slots a run for the money. Topping at 2nd it could give you cantrip Invisibility or (multitarget) Hold Person at 9th, but not spells that would be game-changers if you had an unlimited number of them like counterspell or hypnotic pattern or higher level spells.

Also, limited to Warlock only spells so you can't do something like Shield for effectively a +4 permanent boost to AC at the cost of your reaction.

The only problem is that there's aren't a lot of damaging choices at 1st ont eh Warlock list, perhaps not seen as needed because they had EB.

Heck, you could leave this in with the normal EB boosters - there's only a limited number of invocations know, if they want to go both routes and ignore all the other cool things that's a valid opportunity cost. And it leave you the possibility of THIS warlock is an EB one, while THAT warlock is a Dark talent one, providing more varied build trees.

Blue said:

Just a random thought. Warlocks with Maledictions are better at damage dealing cantrips than other classes. Which can lead to wanting more damage dealing cantrips than normal for the flexibility between cantrips.

With the few cantrips known, this leads to less space for non-combat cantrips as an possible unintended consequence. But the warlock's limited spell slots does call on use of invocations and cantrips in other pillars of play.

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Let's see, the base Warlock has 2 cantrips in tier 1, 3 in tier 2, and 4 in tier 3. So that is quite constrained. Tome Warlocks end gain 3 more cantrips at tier 1. Our Tome Warlock also took Magic Initiate so had 7 cantrips by the end of tier 1! Others aren't so well off, so there does seem to be design space for an invocation that granted a cantrip. One question would be how to ensure that Tome remains a solid choice?

Perhaps selecting one cantrip off a narrow set of lists - such as one arcane cantrip (Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard lists) - would be about right for an invocation?

Blue said:

So, as a thought experiment, what would be additional Maledictions that would help non-combat cantrips? It seems a varied bunch: Friends, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation

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It's possible to write such rules, and for them to yield interest. For me, the core issue is around my players' experiences in combat. FWIW Eldritch Spear as revised could help a wide range of cantrips!

I suppose any 'official' upgrade would have to be via feats or invocations rather than any errata to class features. To keep a lid on it you could limit it to maybe two cantrips from the Warlock list (excluding Eldritch blast) and roll up an increase in damage with slightly longer range (you could say any cantrip with a range of greater than 10' has its range increased by a further 10') plus confirm that the cantrips chosen are eligible to be affected by repelling blast or Grasp of Hadar.

Tome Warlocks would have a slight advantage in that the cantrips they can choose can be from other classes but I doubt that would end up being game-breaking.

Pauln6 said:

I suppose any 'official' upgrade would have to be via feats or invocations rather than any errata to class features.

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The official upgrade will be 5.5ed or 6ed, right

Pauln6 said:

Tome Warlocks would have a slight advantage in that the cantrips they can choose can be from other classes but I doubt that would end up being game-breaking.

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The concern is possibly more that Tome stays relevant. It is quite a big thing to pick from other classes, so limiting to Warlock list might be enough.

clearstream said:

The official upgrade will be 5.5ed or 6ed, right


The concern is possibly more that Tome stays relevant. It is quite a big thing to pick from other classes, so limiting to Warlock list might be enough.

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I think Tome cantrips count as Warlock spells. I would like to see Tome invocations that allow access to more spells known or maybe even a extra spell slot, even a daily spell slot (like a lower level mystic arcarnum) or magical secret like a Bard.

So I'm thinking of the following changes to the warlock.

1) Eldritch Blast is a class ability, not a cantrip. Warlocks get it at level 1. It immediately adds charisma mod to damage.

2) Additional beams are given through the Improved Eldritch Blast class ability, gained at level 5, 11, and 17 similar to the Fighter's Extra Attack class ability. At level 5, Improved Eldritch Blast also provides damage bonus equal to Charisma mod to each beam.

3) Players only gain 1 invocation at level 2 (since agonizing blast is already provided for free). However, more invocations are granted on even levels. This means that Warlocks end up with 2 extra invocations by level 20. Previously, I could not understand the reasoning for why additional invocations were granted when they were. Sometimes it took 2 levels, others 3... was a weird progression.

4) Pact of the Blade gains a melee version of Eldritch Blast which acts as the Pact Weapon.

Hawk Diesel said:

So I'm thinking of the following changes to the warlock.

1) Eldritch Blast is a class ability, not a cantrip. Warlocks get it at level 1. It immediately adds charisma mod to damage.

2) Additional beams are given through the Improved Eldritch Blast class ability, gained at level 5, 11, and 17 similar to the Fighter's Extra Attack class ability. At level 5, Improved Eldritch Blast also provides damage bonus equal to Charisma mod to each beam.

3) Players only gain 1 invocation at level 2 (since agonizing blast is already provided for free). However, more invocations are granted on even levels. This means that Warlocks end up with 2 extra invocations by level 20. Previously, I could not understand the reasoning for why additional invocations were granted when they were. Sometimes it took 2 levels, others 3... was a weird progression.

4) Pact of the Blade gains a melee version of Eldritch Blast which acts as the Pact Weapon.

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I like the idea of Blast being basic to the class so that it feels less like a cantrip/invocation tax. Even if the outcome is the same in terms of features count!

Blast steps away from the other cantrips with each tier, until by tier 3 there's no real option. It even stands out in cross-class comparisons once up-time is considered. It doesn't give the huge hits of GWM, but outputs constant damage with such high up-time that over time, without much thought or optimisation, it out-matches a wide variety of other strategies.

As an experiment, I made some characters and tried playing out a Charisma-modifier-once-per-cast version of Blast, using the maledictions concept where the invocations were applicable to other damage cantrips. It seemed to open up the game play. In one scenario, at tier 2 facing Orogs, Ray of Frost stacked with Lance of Lethargy and Repelling Blast was the better cast. Playtesting the ideas seemed to confirm a hunch that more interesting play was available, where Blast doesn't overshadow as much. I think this means either Charisma-modifier-per-die-of-damage to any cantrip, which I believe could cause some over-shadowing across-classes, or Charisma-modifier-once-per-cast to any cantrip, which is feeling good enough that I'd strongly commend it as worth a try.