2d10 as Replacement for d20?

AbdulAlhazred · May 13, 2018

Garthanos said:
i suspect it is a philosophy thing....

I favor systems where each rule has a memorable impact.

Garthanos · May 13, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
OTOH one might ask WHY would you want to have results which are such huge outliers? It tends to make your game much more swingy.

Perhaps you want to include story tropes which do happen in this kind of story but not very often (its kind of not swingy unless you make those out lies super high impact you may just make them highly different.

AbdulAlhazred · May 13, 2018

Garthanos said:
Perhaps you want to include story tropes which do happen in this kind of story but not very often (its kind of not swingy unless you make those out lies super high impact you may just make them highly different.

Yeah, but then the problem becomes that it never happens when it matters, when its dramatically interesting, etc. You just have this incredibly unreleable 'I win button' basically. In an RPG it simply isn't satisfying. This kind of design is better employed in the opposite fashion, where you have something like the 2e 'Wild Mage' where there's a fairly small chance of something going horribly wrong, but it can REALLY go bad when it does. This can still create problems, but its rarely going to be disappointing, and they are more easily dealt with.

Garthanos · May 13, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
Yeah, but then the problem becomes that it never happens when it matters, when its dramatically interesting, etc.

This be the definition of why there is control of when a daily occurs instead of treating it as a critical hit effect...

By not super high impact I meant making sure they are not I win buttons.... I am trying to come up with a good example and failing... but the idea is it has some flavorful extra contextual impact of a different style bad example critical hit reminds you of something that gives a bonus on your next Diplomacy check or Heal check for an ally.

AbdulAlhazred · May 13, 2018

Garthanos said:
This be the definition of why there is control of when a daily occurs instead of treating it as a critical hit effect...

By not super high impact I meant making sure they are not I win buttons.... I am trying to come up with a good example and failing... but the idea is it has some flavorful extra contextual impact of a different style bad example critical hit reminds you of something that gives a bonus on your next Diplomacy check or Heal check for an ally.

Yeah, there's ways to do that. Some sort of benefit that is nice, but not going to, by itself, tip the whole scene over completely. I think your examples are on the right path. 4e actually has a fair number of examples of this kind of thing already.

But I agree, 4e's use of the Daily power mechanic is basically the answer to this, you can count on your big thing working. It might not carry the day, but you'll AT LEAST get the effect/miss effect part. This is usually good enough to push it into the realm of "the best move I could have made under the circumstances" rather than a titanic whiff or simply swinging away and hoping for the 20.

Wulffolk · Jun 1, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
What IS true, even for 2d10, is that getting a +1 when you need a 12 to pass a check is vastly more useful than getting a +1 when you need an 18 to pass a check. As I said before though, given that most checks in 4e fall into a range of requiring an 8-14 to pass them, you're not going to see a massive difference if you use 2d10 vs 1d20. It will be different for specific checks, but its going to mostly come out in the wash.

Ancalagon said:
That is correct. a +1 increases your chance by 10/100 when you started at 12 to pass, but only by 4/100 when getting it at 18 to pass.

I would think that the math shows exactly the opposite, depending on your point of view. When rolling a dice pool every +1 is even more valuable because it exponentially increases your odds of hitting higher numbers. The less deviation in results the more valuable each bonus point becomes.

With no bonus to the roll of 2d10 there is a 1 in 100 chance of getting a total of 20. With a +1 that increases to 3 in 100. A +2 makes that 6 in 100. +3 gives you a 10 in 100 chance. As you can see, each bonus point becomes more valuable, not less.

With an 19 difficulty a +1 increases your chances from 3 in 100 to 6 in 100. That is a 50% increase in your chance to succeed. However, when the target is 12 a +1 will take you from 45 in 100 to 55 in 100. That is only a 22% increase. A 50% increase is more valuable than a 22% increase, depending on the circumstances.

I would think that using a dice pool makes players more likely to maximise bonuses, but I am fine with that because I prefer more predictable outcomes over the randomness of a d20.

Tony Vargas · Jun 1, 2018

Wulffolk said:
. When rolling a dice pool every +1 is even more valuable because it exponentially increases your odds of hitting higher numbers. The less deviation in results the more valuable each bonus point becomes.

When you're near the middle of the range, as you push further from it, you get diminishing returns.

It encourages more moderate bonuses, because overkill doesn't buy you much. You have to think more about the cost of that next +1.

It depends on the rest of the system, though - with 4e and it's wide range of bonuses over levels it might not help a lot over that range , OTOH, it's fairly tight balance at a given level it could work pretty well.

With no bonus to the roll of 2d10 there is a 1 in 100 chance of getting a total of 20. With a +1 that increases to 3 in 100.

And, on a straight d20, it's 5% per. But you don't start at needing a 20 to succeed, usually more like an 11, so the first net +1 is huge, and the marginal value declines from there.

I would think that using a dice pool makes players more likely to maximise bonuses, .

I played Hero a lot, it uses 3d, roll under, and it always tended naturally towards a tight range of bonuses around a campaign norm.

2d10 wouldn't be as dramatic, but it'd still give a diminishing return on higher bonuses.

d20 the return is more of a cliff. Every +1 is an absolute 5% chance of success, until you get into auto-success (or fail only on a 1, depending), then each additional +1 gives you /nothing/.

AbdulAlhazred · Jun 2, 2018

Wulffolk said:
I would think that the math shows exactly the opposite, depending on your point of view. When rolling a dice pool every +1 is even more valuable because it exponentially increases your odds of hitting higher numbers. The less deviation in results the more valuable each bonus point becomes.

With no bonus to the roll of 2d10 there is a 1 in 100 chance of getting a total of 20. With a +1 that increases to 3 in 100. A +2 makes that 6 in 100. +3 gives you a 10 in 100 chance. As you can see, each bonus point becomes more valuable, not less.

With an 19 difficulty a +1 increases your chances from 3 in 100 to 6 in 100. That is a 50% increase in your chance to succeed. However, when the target is 12 a +1 will take you from 45 in 100 to 55 in 100. That is only a 22% increase. A 50% increase is more valuable than a 22% increase, depending on the circumstances.

I would think that using a dice pool makes players more likely to maximise bonuses, but I am fine with that because I prefer more predictable outcomes over the randomness of a d20.

Well, your % chance of an occurrence of success increases more, but the absolute chance of success is increased the most in the center of the distribution, 10% vs 3%, so a +1 when you need a 12 is more than 3x better. Given that it is the total RATE of successes which actually matters in play (IE how often you hit, not how often you would have hit in some other circumstance) 10% more hits is worth a lot more than 3% more hits.

Now, admittedly, if the situation is some sort of 'hail mary' last ditch attempt to make a check or die trying, then clearly doubling your rate of success is going to seem more significant, but in the long run its not as good.

Wulffolk · Jun 3, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
Well, your % chance of an occurrence of success increases more, but the absolute chance of success is increased the most in the center of the distribution, 10% vs 3%, so a +1 when you need a 12 is more than 3x better. Given that it is the total RATE of successes which actually matters in play (IE how often you hit, not how often you would have hit in some other circumstance) 10% more hits is worth a lot more than 3% more hits.

Now, admittedly, if the situation is some sort of 'hail mary' last ditch attempt to make a check or die trying, then clearly doubling your rate of success is going to seem more significant, but in the long run its not as good.

Except that succeeding against average difficulties means that you are likely succeeding in low pressure situations where there is minimal risk. At that point who really cares?

I would much rather double my chances of success against difficult opponents than be able to wipe the floor with minions one round faster. So, even though that +1 helps in both case, I find it to be more valuable in a dice pool system where there is less deviation, especially against higher difficulty numbers. Hence, why I included that qualifier about point of view.

AbdulAlhazred · Jun 3, 2018

Wulffolk said:
Except that succeeding against average difficulties means that you are likely succeeding in low pressure situations where there is minimal risk. At that point who really cares?

I would much rather double my chances of success against difficult opponents than be able to wipe the floor with minions one round faster. So, even though that +1 helps in both case, I find it to be more valuable in a dice pool system where there is less deviation, especially against higher difficulty numbers. Hence, why I included that qualifier about point of view.

I touched on that point, but you STILL benefit more in the middle of the curve, and I don't agree that the middle of the curve is 'low pressure situations'. In 4e its the vast bulk of ALL situations. I believe this is true with most modern RPGs, which generally aim for a fairly high success rate in the 50-80% range.