D&D 5E End-game gimmicks: the problem with 5e meta-plots

Elfcrusher said:

On a related note, I don't like the warp speed with which characters level in 5e. I'm nostalgic for the days when a level 8 character represented a year of effort, and each level felt exponentially harder. I felt invested in my character. Now they feel disposable.

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shidaku said:

This is a pretty common theme in the literature as much as it is in the game. If we appropriately statted "Demon Princes" they'd be way beyond 20th-level characters. Sure they've got stats so yes fundamentally you could fight it and defeat it, but it's like a squadron of X-Wings going against the Death Star, unless you take advantage of the McGuffin, you're boned.

To continue the comparison, even in ROTJ Luke was only just able to defeat Vader by giving into the dark side (a McGuffin) but he was still no match for the Emperor. And Vader killed him not via combat, but by flushing him down a giant toilet. Or was that Kil'Jaeden?

Very few "bosses" would, IMO, be bosses if they could be defeated in a straight-up fight by ~5 20th level heroes. Beyond that, in some of these cases you run into the "I killed a god!" problem. The McGuffin avoids that, you didn't kill Tiamat, you just flushed her down a toilet to her sewer dimension where she will plot her return.

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Elfcrusher said:

On a related note, I don't like the warp speed with which characters level in 5e. I'm nostalgic for the days when a level 8 character represented a year of effort, and each level felt exponentially harder. I felt invested in my character. Now they feel disposable.

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Corpsetaker said:

That's so you can hurry up, finish the current adventure and move on to the next.

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BMaC said:

2. Regrettably, the MMORPGization of D&D requires rapid leveling.

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jasper said:

Hmmm., I wonder how many posters here would scream bloody murder, and try to kill me; if during Season 8 just as the pcs encounter the big bad in the final chapter, the big players of the realms show up. Wax the big bad. And just give lollypops to the pcs.
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,,,,
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And the big players leave the pcs holding the bar tab!

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dave2008 said:

The fight is supposed to leave the remaining demon lord weakened, thus the PCs fight a weakend demon lord. I can't remember the specific details though.

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Flexor the Mighty! said:

Yeah, apparently they figured he would be too tough at full power for a 15th level party. Though I just ran him at full power and max HP against 6 10-11th level PC and they waxed him quick. Honestly he was a joke, I think if you applied the rules to the fiction the Abyss would be a happy place after a few bands of high level Paladins wiped out the demons and made it into a vacation spot.

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dave2008 said:

That is what is so difficult about D&D. He TPK'd the group of 15th level PCs we ran him against (just to see if my group could take him). My group is not into any kind of optimization or tactics though. Personally I think he is weak, that is why I made a CR 35 epic version.

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