Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!

D&D Beyond has provided yet another of it's data dumps of 12 million characters -- this time telling us character alignments are most popular in D&D. Chaotic Good wins, followed by my least favourite as a DM, Chaotic Neutral. Chaotic Evil is the least popular.

D&D Beyond has provided yet another of it's data dumps of 12 million characters -- this time telling us character alignments are most popular in D&D. Chaotic Good wins, followed by my least favourite as a DM, Chaotic Neutral. Chaotic Evil is the least popular.

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The developer does say that this does not count the percentage of characters with no alignment selected. You can see the original video here.
 

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Oofta

Legend
Yes, but feeling because he had no connection to the pair that he had no obligation to act in any manner other than for his own benefit, and that he could choose to act in that manner entirely under his own authority is precisely what makes him Chaotic. Being Chaotic doesn't mean you have no loyalty to your friends. On the contrary, it tends to mean you only feel any obligation to be loyal to people you have a personal and emotional attachment to. And despite the fact that he wouldn't have necessarily turned in Mal for a profit - and that's certainly not at all clear - he did go behind Mal's back and betray him.

The real key in that scene is when Jayne thinks he's about to die, Jayne's last request to Mal is for Mal to not tell the others what he has done. When Jayne says that, Mal realizes that Jayne has formed a personal emotional attachment to the rest of the crew, has realized that he has betrayed his friends, and does not what his friends to know that he has betrayed them. Therefore Mal knows that Jayne is at that moment as loyal and repentant as Jayne is ever likely to be.

I agree with everything you said here. Jayne is CN, but he cares about his friends and allies and what they think of him. River and whats-his-name were not friends, they had done nothing tor earn his trust.

In my version of CN, a person can make close personal bonds ... he's just not going to extend that good will to a stranger.

The complete character assassination of Luke, Leia, and Han in the sequel trilogy ended my fandom relationship with Star Wars.

I actually liked the movies, but then again I accept that it wasn't my story to tell. I think the movie would have been boring if the trio had been left on a pedestal. To each their own.

I think we can make an argument that Han's character arc and transformation in the original trilogy is much more complete than Jayne's. There are several really telling moments, but probably the most telling is when he tells Leia that though he loves her, if she wants to be with Luke, then for her happiness he'll get out of the way. That's a declaration totally at odds with the character of Han when we first meet him in a New Hope. He's still obviously Chaotic, and obviously if you are chaotic you are appalled by even the notion of "the greater good" (which if chaotic you think is a euphemism for evil), but the Han of 'Return of the Jedi' is motivated by fine feelings and not baser ones. He's loving and compassionate and he's putting the needs and feelings of others ahead of his own in a non-cynical manner.


So once again, he is capable of putting someone else's feelings above his own. So? He cares about Leia and wants her to be happy. That doesn't change his alignment to good, it just means that he respects here choice and individualism. Sounds like something a person with chaotic alignment would say.
 

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Oofta

Legend
My definition of law vs chaotic

Lawful: views the world as a clockwork mechanism. Everything works according to a grand plan, even if we don't understand that plan. When things are in proper order, the whole system works smoothly. If a title is honorable, the person holding the title should be given the respect the title deserves.


Chaotic: there is no grand plan. The only organization is that which makes sense for the people involved. If the old order needs to be replaced so that people can be free to pursue their own goals, so be it. Perceived organization comes out of individuals choosing to cooperate for themselves or their community. Individuals should be judged by their worth or power, not by title or station.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That doesn't change his alignment to good, it just means that he respects here choice and individualism. Sounds like something a person with chaotic alignment would say.

After seeing everything we agree on, I'm beginning to think that the real problem is we have different definitions of good. What would Han have to demonstrate in order for you to think he was Good?
 

Oofta

Legend
After seeing everything we agree on, I'm beginning to think that the real problem is we have different definitions of good. What would Han have to demonstrate in order for you to think he was Good?


Well, I think it's easy to get caught up in assigning a detailed alignment chart for a fictional character, alignment is just one factor determining why somebody does what they do. In addition, I'm not saying Han didn't shift alignments, people change. But respecting that other people should also be able to choose for themselves is part and parcel of being chaotic.

As far as my overall definition of good and evil ...

Good: this is complex, but essentially it comes down to empathy (the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes), and not wanting to harm others. This doesn't mean you don't fight or kill, but that you will fight and kill because you need to protect others. You may do things for your own personal gain as long as you are not harming innocents.


Evil: in general evil people view others as objects with no inherent value. They may love someone, but in many cases love them as a possession, something they own. If the object of their affection doesn't reciprocate they may not care. They may kill or cause pain in others simply because they enjoy it. Your personal gain is all that matters, other people's goals do not unless they hold power over you or you can use their goals to manipulate them.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Well, I think it's easy to get caught up in assigning a detailed alignment chart for a fictional character, alignment is just one factor determining why somebody does what they do.

That's true. Characters also have personalities, preferences and other sorts of dispositions.

But respecting that other people should also be able to choose for themselves is part and parcel of being chaotic.

True, but only fully true of True Chaotic. Chaotic Good draws a hard line on choices that cause woe, and will even intervene if the choice is only causing woe to the individual making it. They are balancing Freedom with Weal, and electing to have an active role with respect to questions of Woe and Weal. They may want to live in a society with unlimited and untrammeled freedom, but they may realistically only see that as possible when everyone has transcended evil impulses. Chaotic Evil on the other may believe in unlimited freedom for themselves, but think that not only does that freedom not extend to others, but that it should not extend to others. They believe in a zero sum world were the only way to profit is at the expense of others, and where being heroic means being true to yourself and exploiting those that are weaker than yourself.

On good and evil, we are pretty close. Empathy I believe is neutral - a largely intellectual skill that doesn't necessarily define a goal. Compare the words Compassion and Mudita.

But you do get close to what I think is the core idea when you say, "not wanting to harm". My quibble there is that "not wanting to harm" is a passive state fully compatible with neutrality. A CN may "not want to harm". Consider the difference between the chaotic axioms: "Harm no one; do as you will." and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The first is passive with respect to weal, while the second actively encourages it. Since the hallmark of neutrality is passivity or indifference to the axiomatic questions, the first I see as a CN manta, while the second is CG. So, what I would say is the core idea of good is closer to "Do the opposite of harm." Promote weal, health, happiness, prosperity, growth, etc. The ideal state of good is for everything to be infinitely abundant, and eternally healthy - growth and happiness and weal without limit.

Evil is the opposite, and again you touch on its central trait when you say, "objects with no inherent value". But I would take it one step further, evil - in its unmingled and pure state - doesn't believe anything has inherent value. Lawful evil and chaotic evil find value in something - "the greater good" of the community or the wants of the self - but evil in and of itself finds no good in objects, others, or the self. All are equally worthless, and the process of evil is to prove this by removing any worth that things could be perceived to have - not just the degradation of others, but critically the degradation of self as well.
 



Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
As far as Han Solo ... I'd still say he was CN. After all he did shoot first in my version of the movies. He did what he did for money and then out of friendship and loyalty to Luke and Leia. I'm not convinced he did it for some greater good. After a while he may have shifted alignment somewhat, but how much of that was just because he was caught up in everything is impossible to tell. All we really know is that after the original trilogy and after he and Leia split he went back to being just another smuggler.

Shooting first doesn't make him chaotic neutral. It just makes him someone who wants to stay alive. He knew what Greedo was like, and he knew what Jabba was like, so he knew he had to shoot first since Greedo had his blaster already pointed at him. Anyone of any alignment could have made that call.

In both cases, the characters show loyalty and friendship even if there's no indication they were motivated by any sense of doing things for the greater good.

Jayne's loyalty ebbs and flows. It's not a constant thing, which makes sense for a chaotic neutral person. Han didn't show any axis at all. He wasn't chaotic in what he did. He wasn't orderly or lawful in what he did. He wasn't good or evil in what he did. He was just out to survive without any strong dedication to an axis. He was very neutral in my opinion. At least until he fell in love.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That’s why I prefer to distinguish between a character’s ideology and their actions. The above character sounds like he holds Good ideals, but commits Evil actions. Which is fairly typical, to be honest. Most people tend to hold altruistic ideals in theory, but in actual practice behave more egoistically. At my table, that character would have Good written on his character sheet, but would count as Evil for the purposes of any mechanics that care about alignment. But, of course, ignoring alignment completely works just as well. Better for 5e, in fact, since 5e has almost no mechanics that care about alignment anyway.

You say he would count as evil. Why? Is evil so much more powerful than good that someone who is the quintessential lawful good person in every other way, becomes evil with that one evil habit? Is any evil act no matter how small enough to do the same? If not, what's the weight of each type of evil act?

Trying to figure that stuff out gives me a headache, so I just ignore it. :)
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
You say he would count as evil. Why? Is evil so much more powerful than good that someone who is the quintessential lawful good person in every other way, becomes evil with that one evil habit?
Um. Maybe I interpreted “abuses children on a regular basis to satisfy his appetites” differently than you meant it, but it read to me like you were implying some Gilles de Rais stuff, which I don’t think it’s controversial to say makes someone evil, regardless of what other good they might do. It’s certainly an egoistic act, whatever you meant to imply, and by my standards therefore an evil act. If he indeed commits evil acts on a regular basis, then yes, he’s evil, even if he has Good ideals.

Is any evil act no matter how small enough to do the same?
Certainly not, but you said it was on a regular basis, and the way I interpreted it, it was not a small evil act. I see what you’re getting at, though. What’s the tipping point? Personally, I equate altruism to good and egoism to evil. This makes Good something someone must actively work to maintain and Evil easy to fall into - to remain Good, one must consistently work to help others at cost to one’s self. Fortunately, D&D characters tend to be presented with a lot of opportunities to do that, but if a character doesn’t regularly take such opportunities, they’re likely to fall to Neutral until they get back into the habit. On the other hand, causing harm to others for one’s own benefit will land you in Evil territory pretty quickly, and coming back from evil requires more than just doing some good acts for a while. I think that’s fitting, especially for the genre. It’s easy to be Evil, but Good is something you have to work at constantly.

Worth noting, while I don’t allow characters who hold evil ideals, I won’t take a character away from a player if their actions end up being more consistent with evil, as long as they maintain good or at least neutral ideals, and are willing to work to redeem themselves. A character seeking atonement for evil they’ve done is still a hero in my book, it’s only those who embrace evil who become villains.

If not, what's the weight of each type of evil act?
That’s something you have to get used to making a call on if you want to DM a game where alignment is enforced. Personally, I employ sort of a utilitarian standard. The greater the total harm caused by an act, the more evil it is.

Trying to figure that stuff out gives me a headache, so I just ignore it. :)
That’s fair. There is absolutely nothing wrong with disregarding Alignment, or just removing it from the game entirely. I personally enjoy it because I think it suits the genre well. But I can absolutely understand and respect those who prefer not to use or pay attention to alignment.
 

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